'Long Range' Weapon Trait

Uncle_Joe
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'Long Range' Weapon Trait

Postby Uncle_Joe » Wed Aug 08, 2012 9:39 pm

Hi all,

Just discovered this system and have finished the first few games. So far, I really like it. I played Starmada X back in the day but I much prefer the faster playing, 'lighter' mechanics of Fleet Ops.

One thing that raised some eyebrows is the 'Long Range' weapon trait. As it reads, you simply double your damage dice rolled when at long range. But at long range, you only hit half as often (6 as opposed to 5-6) so the usefulness of this ability is much less than the 1.7 cost multiplier. Consider that Short Range doubles damage dice as well, but you hit 2x as often making it a far more useful trait (and it only cost 1.3).

These look like they are sort of lifted directly from Starmada (the Inverted Range for Long Range) but in Starmada, you actually hit MORE often at long range and hit LESS often up close. Given that, a high multiplier seemed warranted due to the increased number of fire opportunities with a positive bonus.

To me, it just looks like an oversight in Fleet Ops. Maybe the modifiers are reversed (LR should be 1.3 and SR should be 1.7) or else the halved hit chance for LR wasnt taken into account?

Either that or we are missing something? Or playing something wrong? Does the Long Range trait let you HIT on 5-6 as well or something?

Any help appreciated. For now, we are busily removing that trait from any and all weapons that had it due to the extremely poor performance seen in our initial battles. It's just hard to imagine anything outside of a contrived situation where that trait is viable if we are playing correctly.

Thanks!
T

mj12games
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Re: 'Long Range' Weapon Trait

Postby mj12games » Thu Aug 09, 2012 12:58 pm

Huh. Apparently, there was an oversight. However, it's not one that has a huge impact. It looks like when I computed the modifiers, I failed to account for the change in to-hit number at short and long range. If you want to skip the math below, just know the correct modifier should be 1.5 for both "Short Range" and "Long Range".

----- DANGER: MATH AHEAD -----

The thinking behind range-based traits (in all Starmada iterations, including Fleet Ops) is that ships generally spend more time attacking at longer ranges, and that hits scored early (i.e. at longer ranges) are slightly more beneficial. Thus, the effectiveness of a weapon is weighted accordingly.

In Starmada Nova, this is done by doubling the effectiveness of weapons at medium range, and tripling the effectiveness of weapons at long range. For example, assuming 3 attack dice, you get an effectiveness score of:

3 * 1.41 (short range mod) * 1 (range band weight) + 3 * 1 (medium range mod) * 2 (range band weight) + 3 * 0.71 (long range mod) * 3 (range band weight) = 16.6

For a Diffuse weapon, which changes the range modifiers to +2/-2, this becomes:

3 * 2 (short range mod) * 1 (range band weight) + 3 * 1 (medium range mod) * 2 (range band weight) + 3 * 0.50 (long range mod) * 3 (range band weight) = 16.5

Therefore, the modifier for the Dfs trait is 0.99 (16.5/16.6).

In Fleet Ops, there are only two range bands. Weapons are weighted by doubling the effectiveness at long range. For a normal weapon, assuming 3 attack dice, the effectiveness score is:

3 * 0.33 (accuracy) * 1 (short range) * 1 (range band weight) + 3 * 0.17 (accuracy) * 1 (long range) * 2 (range band weight) = 2

For a "Long Range" weapon, the effectiveness score is:

3 * 0.33 (accuracy) * 1 (short range) * 1 (range band weight) + 3 * 0.17 (accuracy) * 2 (long range) * 2 (range band weight) = 3

Therefore, the modifier for "Long Range" should be 1.5, not 1.7 (3/2).

For a "Short Range" weapon, the effectiveness score is:

3 * 0.33 (accuracy) * 2 (short range) * 1 (range band weight) + 3 * 0.17 (accuracy) * 1 (long range) * 2 (range band weight) = 3

Therefore, the modifier for "Short Range" should be 1.5, not 1.3 (3/2).

Thus, while the modifiers appear to be incorrect, they result in a net change of less than 7% to the final combat rating -- and that's assuming ALL of a ship's weapons are designated as "Short Range" or "Long Range".
Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
www.mj12games.com

Uncle_Joe
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Re: 'Long Range' Weapon Trait

Postby Uncle_Joe » Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:22 pm

Thanks for looking into it. I had been mathing it out myself last night and had settled on 1.5 as well.

In any case, 7% difference or not, it felt VERY noticable when we were playing the game. My math showed LR weapons as approx 18% better when at long range but the non LR weapon of same size/cost came in a whopping ~75% better up close! And that's what it felt like in the game lol when the non-LR fleet managed to close in (and it was made worse because some of the non-LR fleet actually had SHORT RANGE traits which tilted it even further).

Anyways, back to designing the fleets and I'll give the same matchup another go with these revised costs.

Thanks!

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Re: 'Long Range' Weapon Trait

Postby OldnGrey » Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:48 pm

SFO Spreadsheet updated to reflect this.

New spreadsheet 20120809.

Paul
Last edited by OldnGrey on Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

mj12games
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Re: 'Long Range' Weapon Trait

Postby mj12games » Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:08 pm

This change affects the starship conversion process (from SAE). When converting weapon traits, the modifiers applied to the base number of attack dice (pp.28-31) are altered as follows:

Carronade: x0.5 (no change)
Doubled Range Mods: x0.7
Inverted Range Mods: x0.9
Inverted Range-Based ROF/IMP/DMG: x1.3
Minimum Range: x0.5
Range-Based ROF/IMP/DMG: x1.3
Carronade & Doubled Range Mods: x0.5
Carronade & No Range Mods: x0.4
Carronade & Range-Based ROF/IMP/DMG: x1.1
Doubled Range Mods & Range-Based ROF/IMP/DMG: x1.4
Inverted Range Mods & Inverted Range-Based ROF/IMP/DMG: x2.4
Inverted Range Mods & Minimum Range: x0.9
Inverted Range-Based ROF/IMP/DMG & Inverted Range-Based ROF/IMP/DMG: x3.1
Inverted Range-Based ROF/IMP/DMG & Minimum Range: x1.1
Inverted Range-Based ROF/IMP/DMG & No Range Mods: x1.9
Minimum Range & No Range Mods: x0.7
No Range Mods & Range-Based ROF/IMP/DMG: x1.5
Range-Based ROF/IMP/DMG & Range-Based ROF/IMP/DMG: x4.1
Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
www.mj12games.com

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Re: 'Long Range' Weapon Trait

Postby OldnGrey » Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:37 pm

Dan can you please confirm that these are correct figures:

Inverted Range Mods & Range-Based ROF/IMP/DMG: x2.0
Actually no change (x2.0 in book).

No Range Mods & Range-Based ROF/IMP/DMG: x4.
This is a big leap from x1.7 shown in the book.

Thanks

Paul

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Re: 'Long Range' Weapon Trait

Postby mj12games » Thu Aug 09, 2012 3:22 pm

Edited with corrections.
Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
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OldnGrey
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Re: 'Long Range' Weapon Trait

Postby OldnGrey » Thu Aug 09, 2012 3:42 pm

Thank you, now to amend the conversion part of the AE shipyard.

Paul

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Re: 'Long Range' Weapon Trait

Postby OldnGrey » Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:42 pm

Sorry, just one more thing Dan.

Inverted Range Modifiers & Minimum Range.
This gets the Long Range trait and x 0.8 mod in the conversion but is not in the list. Should this get a new SFO mod?

Paul

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Re: 'Long Range' Weapon Trait

Postby murtalianconfederacy » Thu Aug 09, 2012 5:06 pm

Oh...

Damn...

Does this mean I've got to re-do the conversions? :(

EDIT: Going to delete my conversions until I re-do them
Staff Door at my local Waterstones:

"This door is alarmed"

:) :)


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