Hi all,
Just discovered this system and have finished the first few games. So far, I really like it. I played Starmada X back in the day but I much prefer the faster playing, 'lighter' mechanics of Fleet Ops.
One thing that raised some eyebrows is the 'Long Range' weapon trait. As it reads, you simply double your damage dice rolled when at long range. But at long range, you only hit half as often (6 as opposed to 56) so the usefulness of this ability is much less than the 1.7 cost multiplier. Consider that Short Range doubles damage dice as well, but you hit 2x as often making it a far more useful trait (and it only cost 1.3).
These look like they are sort of lifted directly from Starmada (the Inverted Range for Long Range) but in Starmada, you actually hit MORE often at long range and hit LESS often up close. Given that, a high multiplier seemed warranted due to the increased number of fire opportunities with a positive bonus.
To me, it just looks like an oversight in Fleet Ops. Maybe the modifiers are reversed (LR should be 1.3 and SR should be 1.7) or else the halved hit chance for LR wasnt taken into account?
Either that or we are missing something? Or playing something wrong? Does the Long Range trait let you HIT on 56 as well or something?
Any help appreciated. For now, we are busily removing that trait from any and all weapons that had it due to the extremely poor performance seen in our initial battles. It's just hard to imagine anything outside of a contrived situation where that trait is viable if we are playing correctly.
Thanks!
T
'Long Range' Weapon Trait

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Re: 'Long Range' Weapon Trait
Huh. Apparently, there was an oversight. However, it's not one that has a huge impact. It looks like when I computed the modifiers, I failed to account for the change in tohit number at short and long range. If you want to skip the math below, just know the correct modifier should be 1.5 for both "Short Range" and "Long Range".
 DANGER: MATH AHEAD 
The thinking behind rangebased traits (in all Starmada iterations, including Fleet Ops) is that ships generally spend more time attacking at longer ranges, and that hits scored early (i.e. at longer ranges) are slightly more beneficial. Thus, the effectiveness of a weapon is weighted accordingly.
In Starmada Nova, this is done by doubling the effectiveness of weapons at medium range, and tripling the effectiveness of weapons at long range. For example, assuming 3 attack dice, you get an effectiveness score of:
3 * 1.41 (short range mod) * 1 (range band weight) + 3 * 1 (medium range mod) * 2 (range band weight) + 3 * 0.71 (long range mod) * 3 (range band weight) = 16.6
For a Diffuse weapon, which changes the range modifiers to +2/2, this becomes:
3 * 2 (short range mod) * 1 (range band weight) + 3 * 1 (medium range mod) * 2 (range band weight) + 3 * 0.50 (long range mod) * 3 (range band weight) = 16.5
Therefore, the modifier for the Dfs trait is 0.99 (16.5/16.6).
In Fleet Ops, there are only two range bands. Weapons are weighted by doubling the effectiveness at long range. For a normal weapon, assuming 3 attack dice, the effectiveness score is:
3 * 0.33 (accuracy) * 1 (short range) * 1 (range band weight) + 3 * 0.17 (accuracy) * 1 (long range) * 2 (range band weight) = 2
For a "Long Range" weapon, the effectiveness score is:
3 * 0.33 (accuracy) * 1 (short range) * 1 (range band weight) + 3 * 0.17 (accuracy) * 2 (long range) * 2 (range band weight) = 3
Therefore, the modifier for "Long Range" should be 1.5, not 1.7 (3/2).
For a "Short Range" weapon, the effectiveness score is:
3 * 0.33 (accuracy) * 2 (short range) * 1 (range band weight) + 3 * 0.17 (accuracy) * 1 (long range) * 2 (range band weight) = 3
Therefore, the modifier for "Short Range" should be 1.5, not 1.3 (3/2).
Thus, while the modifiers appear to be incorrect, they result in a net change of less than 7% to the final combat rating  and that's assuming ALL of a ship's weapons are designated as "Short Range" or "Long Range".
 DANGER: MATH AHEAD 
The thinking behind rangebased traits (in all Starmada iterations, including Fleet Ops) is that ships generally spend more time attacking at longer ranges, and that hits scored early (i.e. at longer ranges) are slightly more beneficial. Thus, the effectiveness of a weapon is weighted accordingly.
In Starmada Nova, this is done by doubling the effectiveness of weapons at medium range, and tripling the effectiveness of weapons at long range. For example, assuming 3 attack dice, you get an effectiveness score of:
3 * 1.41 (short range mod) * 1 (range band weight) + 3 * 1 (medium range mod) * 2 (range band weight) + 3 * 0.71 (long range mod) * 3 (range band weight) = 16.6
For a Diffuse weapon, which changes the range modifiers to +2/2, this becomes:
3 * 2 (short range mod) * 1 (range band weight) + 3 * 1 (medium range mod) * 2 (range band weight) + 3 * 0.50 (long range mod) * 3 (range band weight) = 16.5
Therefore, the modifier for the Dfs trait is 0.99 (16.5/16.6).
In Fleet Ops, there are only two range bands. Weapons are weighted by doubling the effectiveness at long range. For a normal weapon, assuming 3 attack dice, the effectiveness score is:
3 * 0.33 (accuracy) * 1 (short range) * 1 (range band weight) + 3 * 0.17 (accuracy) * 1 (long range) * 2 (range band weight) = 2
For a "Long Range" weapon, the effectiveness score is:
3 * 0.33 (accuracy) * 1 (short range) * 1 (range band weight) + 3 * 0.17 (accuracy) * 2 (long range) * 2 (range band weight) = 3
Therefore, the modifier for "Long Range" should be 1.5, not 1.7 (3/2).
For a "Short Range" weapon, the effectiveness score is:
3 * 0.33 (accuracy) * 2 (short range) * 1 (range band weight) + 3 * 0.17 (accuracy) * 1 (long range) * 2 (range band weight) = 3
Therefore, the modifier for "Short Range" should be 1.5, not 1.3 (3/2).
Thus, while the modifiers appear to be incorrect, they result in a net change of less than 7% to the final combat rating  and that's assuming ALL of a ship's weapons are designated as "Short Range" or "Long Range".
Re: 'Long Range' Weapon Trait
Thanks for looking into it. I had been mathing it out myself last night and had settled on 1.5 as well.
In any case, 7% difference or not, it felt VERY noticable when we were playing the game. My math showed LR weapons as approx 18% better when at long range but the non LR weapon of same size/cost came in a whopping ~75% better up close! And that's what it felt like in the game lol when the nonLR fleet managed to close in (and it was made worse because some of the nonLR fleet actually had SHORT RANGE traits which tilted it even further).
Anyways, back to designing the fleets and I'll give the same matchup another go with these revised costs.
Thanks!
In any case, 7% difference or not, it felt VERY noticable when we were playing the game. My math showed LR weapons as approx 18% better when at long range but the non LR weapon of same size/cost came in a whopping ~75% better up close! And that's what it felt like in the game lol when the nonLR fleet managed to close in (and it was made worse because some of the nonLR fleet actually had SHORT RANGE traits which tilted it even further).
Anyways, back to designing the fleets and I'll give the same matchup another go with these revised costs.
Thanks!
Re: 'Long Range' Weapon Trait
SFO Spreadsheet updated to reflect this.
New spreadsheet 20120809.
Paul
New spreadsheet 20120809.
Paul
Last edited by OldnGrey on Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 'Long Range' Weapon Trait
This change affects the starship conversion process (from SAE). When converting weapon traits, the modifiers applied to the base number of attack dice (pp.2831) are altered as follows:
Carronade: x0.5 (no change)
Doubled Range Mods: x0.7
Inverted Range Mods: x0.9
Inverted RangeBased ROF/IMP/DMG: x1.3
Minimum Range: x0.5
RangeBased ROF/IMP/DMG: x1.3
Carronade & Doubled Range Mods: x0.5
Carronade & No Range Mods: x0.4
Carronade & RangeBased ROF/IMP/DMG: x1.1
Doubled Range Mods & RangeBased ROF/IMP/DMG: x1.4
Inverted Range Mods & Inverted RangeBased ROF/IMP/DMG: x2.4
Inverted Range Mods & Minimum Range: x0.9
Inverted RangeBased ROF/IMP/DMG & Inverted RangeBased ROF/IMP/DMG: x3.1
Inverted RangeBased ROF/IMP/DMG & Minimum Range: x1.1
Inverted RangeBased ROF/IMP/DMG & No Range Mods: x1.9
Minimum Range & No Range Mods: x0.7
No Range Mods & RangeBased ROF/IMP/DMG: x1.5
RangeBased ROF/IMP/DMG & RangeBased ROF/IMP/DMG: x4.1
Carronade: x0.5 (no change)
Doubled Range Mods: x0.7
Inverted Range Mods: x0.9
Inverted RangeBased ROF/IMP/DMG: x1.3
Minimum Range: x0.5
RangeBased ROF/IMP/DMG: x1.3
Carronade & Doubled Range Mods: x0.5
Carronade & No Range Mods: x0.4
Carronade & RangeBased ROF/IMP/DMG: x1.1
Doubled Range Mods & RangeBased ROF/IMP/DMG: x1.4
Inverted Range Mods & Inverted RangeBased ROF/IMP/DMG: x2.4
Inverted Range Mods & Minimum Range: x0.9
Inverted RangeBased ROF/IMP/DMG & Inverted RangeBased ROF/IMP/DMG: x3.1
Inverted RangeBased ROF/IMP/DMG & Minimum Range: x1.1
Inverted RangeBased ROF/IMP/DMG & No Range Mods: x1.9
Minimum Range & No Range Mods: x0.7
No Range Mods & RangeBased ROF/IMP/DMG: x1.5
RangeBased ROF/IMP/DMG & RangeBased ROF/IMP/DMG: x4.1
Re: 'Long Range' Weapon Trait
Dan can you please confirm that these are correct figures:
Inverted Range Mods & RangeBased ROF/IMP/DMG: x2.0
Actually no change (x2.0 in book).
No Range Mods & RangeBased ROF/IMP/DMG: x4.
This is a big leap from x1.7 shown in the book.
Thanks
Paul
Inverted Range Mods & RangeBased ROF/IMP/DMG: x2.0
Actually no change (x2.0 in book).
No Range Mods & RangeBased ROF/IMP/DMG: x4.
This is a big leap from x1.7 shown in the book.
Thanks
Paul

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Re: 'Long Range' Weapon Trait
Edited with corrections.
Re: 'Long Range' Weapon Trait
Thank you, now to amend the conversion part of the AE shipyard.
Paul
Paul
Re: 'Long Range' Weapon Trait
Sorry, just one more thing Dan.
Inverted Range Modifiers & Minimum Range.
This gets the Long Range trait and x 0.8 mod in the conversion but is not in the list. Should this get a new SFO mod?
Paul
Inverted Range Modifiers & Minimum Range.
This gets the Long Range trait and x 0.8 mod in the conversion but is not in the list. Should this get a new SFO mod?
Paul

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 Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:56 am
Re: 'Long Range' Weapon Trait
Oh...
Damn...
Does this mean I've got to redo the conversions?
EDIT: Going to delete my conversions until I redo them
Damn...
Does this mean I've got to redo the conversions?
EDIT: Going to delete my conversions until I redo them
Staff Door at my local Waterstones:
"This door is alarmed"
"This door is alarmed"
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