Ironclad Armada-Free Source book

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murtalianconfederacy
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Re: Ironclad Armada-Free Source book

Postby murtalianconfederacy » Thu Apr 14, 2011 5:01 pm

Here are my initial notes on some Brazilian ironclads:

Barrozo--Hull 4
Speed: 4
Armour: Faceted 2/4/4/4/4/2
Weapons: 1 Heavy Rifle
2 Medium Rifles
2 Medium Smoothbores
2 Very Light Smoothbores

7 Marines

Ram

Armour Plating

No exact info found on the way the vessels mounted their guns except for mentioning very narrow arcs of fire and the way the eight gunports were arranged. The only other source material I have for the Barrozo (Encyclopaedia of Ships, Silverdale Books 2001), indicates the 7" and the 68pr smoothbores could not fire ahead or astern, so I'm going to say that the Heavy Rifle and Medium SB fire into the C/D arcs (one SB each side, the Heavy Rifle in the CD arc), the medium rifles forward and the very light SBs aft. This is very likely completely wrong, but its all I have to go on.

Tamandere--Hull 3
Speed: 4
Armour: Faceted 2/4/4/4/4/2
Weapons: 1 Medium Rifle
3 Medium SB
2 Very Light SB

6 Marines

Ram

Armour Plating

As the Barrozo, no exact info on the disposition of their guns. Unfortunately, I have no other source. Seeing as the Tamandere was supposed to resemble the Barrozo and Rio de Janeiro, and it seems to have the same number of gunports according to wikipedia, I'm going to have the medium rifle and one medium SB having GCD arcs, one medium SB on each broadside, and the two VL SB aft.

Rio de Janeiro--3 Hull
Speed: 4
Armour: Faceted: 2/4/4/4/4/2
Weapons: 2 Medium Rifles
2 Medium SB

7 Marines

Ram

Armour Plating

Same as Tamandere. I'm considering having the Rifles in a GC/GD arc and the SBs in a CL/DL arc.

Para-class
Hull-3
Speed: 4
Armour: 3
Weapons:
First 3--1 Medium Rifle
Second 3--1 Heavy Rifle

2 Marines

Ram

Armour Plating, Countermeasures

This is the only class I actually feel confident about, as its a monitor. The only thing I'm not sure about is whether it should have a 360 degree arc or a 300 degree arc.

Sete de Setembro--Hull 6
Speed: 6
Armour: 4
Weapons: 4 Very Heavy Rifles

9 Marines

Ram

The arc of fire is very hard to determine for the four 300lb, 9" guns. They are stated to be on the corners of the casement/casemate in pivot mounts, but no mention is given to those arcs. At the moment, I'm split between a GHJ/GIK/HJL/IKL, or AC/BD/CE/DF arcs

Unfortunately, my internet connection is playing up and I can't do more than get some very basic notes for the above vessels, which is part of the confusion...

I'll see if I can convert the Javary/Solimoes, as well as the Argentinian Los Andes monitors
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Re: Ironclad Armada-Free Source book

Postby bekosh » Thu Apr 14, 2011 7:04 pm

Nice work, they look pretty good. I don't know why I skipped Brazil when I was working on this. :? Their ironclads may not have fought any other ships but they sure could have.
murtalianconfederacy wrote:Here are my initial notes on some Brazilian ironclads:

Barrozo--Hull 4
Speed: 4
Armour: Faceted 2/4/4/4/4/2
Weapons: 1 Heavy Rifle
2 Medium Rifles
2 Medium Smoothbores
2 Very Light Smoothbores

7 Marines

Ram

Armour Plating

No exact info found on the way the vessels mounted their guns except for mentioning very narrow arcs of fire and the way the eight gunports were arranged. The only other source material I have for the Barrozo (Encyclopaedia of Ships, Silverdale Books 2001), indicates the 7" and the 68pr smoothbores could not fire ahead or astern, so I'm going to say that the Heavy Rifle and Medium SB fire into the C/D arcs (one SB each side, the Heavy Rifle in the CD arc), the medium rifles forward and the very light SBs aft. This is very likely completely wrong, but its all I have to go on.

I'm not sure the Heavy Rifle can pivot side to side that way. The casement looks pretty small based on pictures of the Tamandare.
I would go with the HR [C] arc, the MSB [C][D], the MR [D][G] and the VLSB [G][L]. Basically the Heavy Rifle is mounted at the aft portside gunport and blocks one of the aft gunports and all of the rest fire through 1 gunport each.

murtalianconfederacy wrote:Tamandere--Hull 3
Speed: 4
Armour: Faceted 2/4/4/4/4/2
Weapons: 1 Medium Rifle
3 Medium SB
2 Very Light SB

6 Marines

Ram

Armour Plating

As the Barrozo, no exact info on the disposition of their guns. Unfortunately, I have no other source. Seeing as the Tamandere was supposed to resemble the Barrozo and Rio de Janeiro, and it seems to have the same number of gunports according to wikipedia, I'm going to have the medium rifle and one medium SB having GCD arcs, one medium SB on each broadside, and the two VL SB aft.

Similar situation here. You aren't going to be able to have the MR & the MSB with the same arcs. you'd have 2 guns firing from the same broadside ports.
I think it's probably more like, MR [GC], MSB [GD][C][D] and VLSB [L][L]. The 2 forward guns are on pivot mounts side by side and the rest on fixed single port mounts.

murtalianconfederacy wrote:Rio de Janeiro--3 Hull
Speed: 4
Armour: Faceted: 2/4/4/4/4/2
Weapons: 2 Medium Rifles
2 Medium SB

7 Marines

Ram

Armour Plating

Same as Tamandere. I'm considering having the Rifles in a GC/GD arc and the SBs in a CL/DL arc.

I agree. This works out.

murtalianconfederacy wrote:Para-class
Hull-3
Speed: 4
Armour: 3
Weapons:
First 3--1 Medium Rifle
Second 3--1 Heavy Rifle

2 Marines

Ram

Armour Plating, Countermeasures

This is the only class I actually feel confident about, as its a monitor. The only thing I'm not sure about is whether it should have a 360 degree arc or a 300 degree arc.

From the photo on Wiki, I'd say 300 with the front blocked by the raised bow. [HIJKL]

murtalianconfederacy wrote:Sete de Setembro--Hull 6
Speed: 6
Armour: 4
Weapons: 4 Very Heavy Rifles

9 Marines

Ram

The arc of fire is very hard to determine for the four 300lb, 9" guns. They are stated to be on the corners of the casement/casemate in pivot mounts, but no mention is given to those arcs. At the moment, I'm split between a GHJ/GIK/HJL/IKL, or AC/BD/CE/DF arcs

For the 4 gun central battery ironclads [AC][BD][CE][DF] seems most appropriate. The line drawings in Brassy's Annual 1887 for similar gun mounts show that the firing arcs don't cross over the centerline forward or aft at all.

murtalianconfederacy wrote:Unfortunately, my internet connection is playing up and I can't do more than get some very basic notes for the above vessels, which is part of the confusion...

I'll see if I can convert the Javary/Solimoes, as well as the Argentinian Los Andes monitors.

Keep 'em coming.
Paul
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Re: Ironclad Armada-Free Source book

Postby murtalianconfederacy » Thu Apr 14, 2011 8:36 pm

bekosh wrote:Nice work, they look pretty good. I don't know why I skipped Brazil when I was working on this. :? Their ironclads may not have fought any other ships but they sure could have.
murtalianconfederacy wrote:Here are my initial notes on some Brazilian ironclads:

Barrozo--Hull 4
Speed: 4
Armour: Faceted 2/4/4/4/4/2
Weapons: 1 Heavy Rifle
2 Medium Rifles
2 Medium Smoothbores
2 Very Light Smoothbores

7 Marines

Ram

Armour Plating

No exact info found on the way the vessels mounted their guns except for mentioning very narrow arcs of fire and the way the eight gunports were arranged. The only other source material I have for the Barrozo (Encyclopaedia of Ships, Silverdale Books 2001), indicates the 7" and the 68pr smoothbores could not fire ahead or astern, so I'm going to say that the Heavy Rifle and Medium SB fire into the C/D arcs (one SB each side, the Heavy Rifle in the CD arc), the medium rifles forward and the very light SBs aft. This is very likely completely wrong, but its all I have to go on.

I'm not sure the Heavy Rifle can pivot side to side that way. The casement looks pretty small based on pictures of the Tamandare.
I would go with the HR [C] arc, the MSB [C][D], the MR [D][G] and the VLSB [G][L]. Basically the Heavy Rifle is mounted at the aft portside gunport and blocks one of the aft gunports and all of the rest fire through 1 gunport each.


I based it off of your casements, but I agree with you. Just feels a bit unusual designing a ship with asymmetric broadsides...

bekosh wrote:
murtalianconfederacy wrote:Tamandere--Hull 3
Speed: 4
Armour: Faceted 2/4/4/4/4/2
Weapons: 1 Medium Rifle
3 Medium SB
2 Very Light SB

6 Marines

Ram

Armour Plating

As the Barrozo, no exact info on the disposition of their guns. Unfortunately, I have no other source. Seeing as the Tamandere was supposed to resemble the Barrozo and Rio de Janeiro, and it seems to have the same number of gunports according to wikipedia, I'm going to have the medium rifle and one medium SB having GCD arcs, one medium SB on each broadside, and the two VL SB aft.

Similar situation here. You aren't going to be able to have the MR & the MSB with the same arcs. you'd have 2 guns firing from the same broadside ports.
I think it's probably more like, MR [GC], MSB [GD][C][D] and VLSB [L][L]. The 2 forward guns are on pivot mounts side by side and the rest on fixed single port mounts.


Seems reasonable. I think I was basing my knowledge off of knowledge that one ironclad had guns on an ingenious set of rails that allowed them to fire from any gunport. And the Brazilians built the Para-class because of their inability to shell Paraguayan forts in the Triple Alliance War (the Barrozo, in a fleet of ten ironclads including three of the Para monitors, forced their way past a Paraguayan fort system in a siege--not sure of the name though)

bekosh wrote:
murtalianconfederacy wrote:Rio de Janeiro--3 Hull
Speed: 4
Armour: Faceted: 2/4/4/4/4/2
Weapons: 2 Medium Rifles
2 Medium SB

7 Marines

Ram

Armour Plating

Same as Tamandere. I'm considering having the Rifles in a GC/GD arc and the SBs in a CL/DL arc.

I agree. This works out.


Thanks for the confirmation...

bekosh wrote:
murtalianconfederacy wrote:Para-class
Hull-3
Speed: 4
Armour: 3
Weapons:
First 3--1 Medium Rifle
Second 3--1 Heavy Rifle

2 Marines

Ram

Armour Plating, Countermeasures

This is the only class I actually feel confident about, as its a monitor. The only thing I'm not sure about is whether it should have a 360 degree arc or a 300 degree arc.

From the photo on Wiki, I'd say 300 with the front blocked by the raised bow. [HIJKL]


Okay, thanks for that, will design it as such. I was slightly bemused by the 360 arc though, as they mentioned the turret could revolve once in 2 1/4 minutes

bekosh wrote:
murtalianconfederacy wrote:Sete de Setembro--Hull 6
Speed: 6
Armour: 4
Weapons: 4 Very Heavy Rifles

9 Marines

Ram

The arc of fire is very hard to determine for the four 300lb, 9" guns. They are stated to be on the corners of the casement/casemate in pivot mounts, but no mention is given to those arcs. At the moment, I'm split between a GHJ/GIK/HJL/IKL, or AC/BD/CE/DF arcs

For the 4 gun central battery ironclads [AC][BD][CE][DF] seems most appropriate. The line drawings in Brassy's Annual 1887 for similar gun mounts show that the firing arcs don't cross over the centerline forward or aft at all.


Thanks again--I was tempted to go for that, but thought I'd get someone to nail it down for me.

bekosh wrote:
murtalianconfederacy wrote:Unfortunately, my internet connection is playing up and I can't do more than get some very basic notes for the above vessels, which is part of the confusion...

I'll see if I can convert the Javary/Solimoes, as well as the Argentinian Los Andes monitors.

Keep 'em coming.


Will do so as soon as I can--have yet to actually do any, but will do so ASAP. Unfortunately, most of my naval books are concentrated post-1890, or focused on British designs (its hard even finding out designs of French or Italian ironclads)
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Re: Ironclad Armada-Free Source book

Postby bekosh » Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:43 pm

murtalianconfederacy wrote:I based it off of your casements, but I agree with you. Just feels a bit unusual designing a ship with asymmetric broadsides...

A lot of times with the info at hand it's still just 'best guess' as to the layout. I still question some of the layouts I did just because I don't know how much is me optimizing the layout as a gamer. Sure it makes sense to put the biggest gun in the best location with the widest arcs but is that really what happened? Maybe the Heavy Rifle was mounted on the broadside because they didn't have a pivot for it so the 32lb popgun gets the best location.

murtalianconfederacy wrote:Seems reasonable. I think I was basing my knowledge off of knowledge that one ironclad had guns on an ingenious set of rails that allowed them to fire from any gunport. And the Brazilians built the Para-class because of their inability to shell Paraguayan forts in the Triple Alliance War (the Barrozo, in a fleet of ten ironclads including three of the Para monitors, forced their way past a Paraguayan fort system in a siege--not sure of the name though)

That rail system really showed up later into the 1870's. For the earlier ships it was pretty much fixed mounts or pivot mounts.
murtalianconfederacy wrote:Okay, thanks for that, will design it as such. I was slightly bemused by the 360 arc though, as they mentioned the turret could revolve once in 2 1/4 minutes.

Thats ok, some of the heavy guns really only fire 1 shot every 15 minutes or so(about 6 turns) but we don't have a 'Slow Firing (6 turn)' weapon trait. :lol:
murtalianconfederacy wrote:Will do so as soon as I can--have yet to actually do any, but will do so ASAP. Unfortunately, most of my naval books are concentrated post-1890, or focused on British designs (its hard even finding out designs of French or Italian ironclads)

I know what you mean. It was easy to find British and American ship info/photos. For other countries there sometimes isn't much info in English. And there is only so much that Google Translate can do. I had a devil of a time finding pictures of some of the Russian ships until I figured out that Ironclad in Russian translates as 'Armadillo'. ;) So I just had to search for the Russian Central Battery 'Armadillo' 'Do Not Touch Me'. :lol:
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Re: Ironclad Armada-Free Source book

Postby csragamaster » Fri Apr 15, 2011 2:46 am

Nice conversion to steam and sail. I really like the approach on the sail rules and may use them with the Ether Flyers that I downloaded from Iron Stars! Can't wait to give them a try!
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Re: Ironclad Armada-Free Source book

Postby murtalianconfederacy » Fri Apr 15, 2011 11:08 am

I've asked about the layout of the weapons on the four 'troublesome' vessels. No answers yet (and my internet connection is still playing up) but I at least found out about a website that has some pictures of vessels--Shipbucket. Don't think it'd be that useful for actual conversion, but it could be useful...
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Re: Ironclad Armada-Free Source book

Postby murtalianconfederacy » Fri Apr 15, 2011 4:31 pm

And here they are, the product of a couple of hours of conversion work...

Barroso (Brazilian Armoured Gunboat) (65)
Hull: 4 3 2 1
Engines [TL 0]: 4 3 2 1
Faceted [TL 0]: 20 15 10 5
Facets: 2/4/4/4/4/2
Weapon Hit Chart: [VX] [VX] [WY] [WY] [WY] [X]
Weaponry [TL 0]:
Battery V: Heavy Rifle [C]
Battery W: Medium Rifle [G] [D]
Battery X: Medium Smoothbore [C] [D]
Battery Y: Very Light Smoothbore [G] [L]
Special [TL 0]: Ram (1), Armour Plating, Marines (7)

Notes: 54 SUs remain

Tamandere (Brazilian Armoured Gunboat) (51)
Hull: 3 2 1
Engines [TL 0]: 4 3 2
Faceted [TL 0]: 20 14 7
Facets: 2/4/4/4/4/2
Weapon Hit Chart: [VW] [VW] [WX] [WX] [WX] [WX]
Weaponry [TL 0]:
Battery V: Medium Rifle [GC]
Battery W: Medium Smoothbore [GD] [C] [D]
Battery X: Very Light Smoothbore [L] [L]
Special [TL 0]: Ram (1), Armour Plating, Marines (6)

Notes: 3 SUs remain, so this is pretty close

Rio de Janeiro (Brazilian Armoured Gunboat) (53)
Hull: 3 2 1
Engines [TL 0]: 4 3 2
Faceted [TL 0]: 20 14 7
Facets: 2/4/4/4/4/2
Weapon Hit Chart: [VW] [VW] [V] [V] [W] [W]
Weaponry [TL 0]:
Battery V: Medium Rifle [GC] [GD]
Battery W: Medium Smoothbore [CL] [DL]
Special [TL 0]: Ram (1), Armour Plating, Marines (7)

Notes: this vessel is 9 SUs over, but is fairly close that I decided not to do a re-design.

Para-class (first three) (Brazilian River Monitor) (41)
Hull: 3 2 1
Engines [TL 0]: 4 3 2
Shields [TL 0]: 3 2 1
Weapon Hit Chart: [V] [V] [--] [--] [--] [--]
Weaponry [TL 1]:
Battery V: Medium Rifle [HIJKL]
Special [TL 0]: Ram (1), Armour Plating, Marines (2), Countermeasures

Notes: 73 SUs remain

Para-class (second three) (Brazilian River Monitor) (51)
Hull: 3 2 1
Engines [TL 0]: 4 3 2
Shields [TL 0]: 3 2 1
Weapon Hit Chart: [V] [V] [--] [--] [--] [--]
Weaponry [TL 1]:
Battery V: Heavy Rifle [HIJKL]
Special [TL 0]: Ram (1), Armour Plating, Marines (2), Countermeasures

Notes: 61 SUs remain

Sete de Setembro (Brazilian Armoured Frigate) (145)
Hull: 6 5 4 3 2 1
Engines [TL 1]: 6 5 4 3 2 1
Shields [TL 1]: 4 4 3 2 2 1
Weapon Hit Chart: [V] [V] [V] [V] [--] [--]
Weaponry [TL 0]:
Battery V: VH Rifle [AC] [BD] [CE] [DF]
Special [TL 0]: Marines (9)

Notes: 119 SUs remain. Without the TL modifier (which I decided to use as the ship was launched/completed in 1874), the ship would be 89 SUs over.

Javary, Solimoes (Brazilian Turret Ship) (365)
Hull: 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1
Engines [TL 1]: 5 5 4 4 3 2 2 1
Shields [TL 1]: 5 5 4 4 3 2 2 1
Weapon Hit Chart: [V] [V] [--] [--] [--] [--]
Weaponry [TL 1]:
Battery V: UH Rifle Turret (ROF-2) [GHIJK] [HIJKL]
Special [TL 0]: Marines (7)

Notes: 19 SUs left. This vessel was a hard one to convert, as I had to raise the hull by one and even then I removed armour plating which it could have, being 'low-freeboard'. I was going to have the arcs be ABCD/CDEF, but looking at the Devastation, Dreadnought and comparing pictures of both the two British vessels and Javary, they seemed similar enough that I gave them 300 degree arcs.

Los Andes, La Plata (Argentinian Turret Ship) (111)
Hull: 4 3 2 1
Engines [TL 1]: 4 3 2 1
Shields [TL 1]: 3 3 2 1
Weapon Hit Chart: [V] [V] [--] [--] [--] [--]
Weaponry [TL 1]:
Battery V: VH Rifle Turret (ROF-2) [HIJK]
Special [TL 0]: Marines (10), Armour Plating, Ram

Notes: 62 SUs left. This was the opposite of the Javary--I had designated the Los Andes as a hull 5 vessel, but the resultant vessel was 216 SUs over. Arc-wise, the picture I have has the turret very close to the aft superstructure, so I decided that the turret didn't have much arc. However, it should be easy enough to convert it to a GHIJK arc if evidence pops up that it had a reasonable arc of fire to the aft, and it has enough space for a ram if it does possess one.

EDIT: I have changed the arc of the turret to a HIJK arc, and added the ram, which increases the CRAT of the class by 1

Vasco da Gama (Portugese Central Battery Ironclad) (149)
Hull: 6 5 4 3 2 1
Engines [TL 1]: 5 5 4 3 2 1
Faceted [TL 1]: 20 17 14 10 7 4
Facets: 2/4/4/4/4/2
Weapon Hit Chart: [V] [V] [W] [--] [--] [--]
Weaponry [TL 0]:
Battery V: UH Rifle [ACE] [BDF]
Battery W: Medium Rifle [EF]
Special [TL 0]: Marines (12)

Notes: 140 SUs left. This was the vessel I remember having the complex set of rails. It has the ability for ahead and astern fire, so I gave each one of the 10" guns a 180 degree arc.
Last edited by murtalianconfederacy on Fri Apr 22, 2011 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ironclad Armada-Free Source book

Postby bekosh » Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:06 pm

murtalianconfederacy wrote:And here they are, the product of a couple of hours of conversion work...

Good stuff! Now that we have the Argentinians we can make some Falkland Island '82 scenarios. That's 1882. :lol:

murtalianconfederacy wrote:Rio de Janeiro (Brazilian Armoured Gunboat) (53)
Notes: this vessel is 9 SUs over, but is fairly close that I decided not to do a re-design.

The easy fix is to drop the Marines by 2 down to 5 with a pretty limited effect on it's combat abilities.

murtalianconfederacy wrote:Javary, Solimoes (Brazilian Turret Ship) (365)
Notes: 19 SUs left. This vessel was a hard one to convert, as I had to raise the hull by one and even then I removed armour plating which it could have, being 'low-freeboard'. I was going to have the arcs be ABCD/CDEF, but looking at the Devastation, Dreadnought and comparing pictures of both the two British vessels and Javary, they seemed similar enough that I gave them 300 degree arcs.

Agree on the arcs, Brasseys Annual 1887 has a deck plan showing very wide firing arcs. See Attachment.
javary.jpg
Javary & Solimoes
javary.jpg (58.38 KiB) Viewed 2720 times


murtalianconfederacy wrote:Los Andes, La Plata (Argentinian Turret Ship) (110)
Notes: 93 SUs left. This was the opposite of the Javary--I had designated the Los Andes as a hull 5 vessel, but the resultant vessel was 216 SUs over. Arc-wise, the picture I have has the turret very close to the aft superstructure, so I decided that the turret didn't have much arc. However, it should be easy enough to convert it to a GHIJK arc if evidence pops up that it had a reasonable arc of fire to the aft, and it has enough space for a ram if it does possess one.

I think even with the aft structure it could get the J & K arc, but, there is a forward structure blocking the [G] arc. Warship International 1973 Issue 1 has a deckplan. I would make it [HIJK] and go ahead and add the ram. See Attachment.
Andes.jpg
Los Ande & La Plata
Andes.jpg (22.71 KiB) Viewed 2720 times


murtalianconfederacy wrote:Vasco da Gama (Portugese Central Battery Ironclad) (149)
Notes: 140 SUs left. This was the vessel I remember having the complex set of rails. It has the ability for ahead and astern fire, so I gave each one of the 10" guns a 180 degree arc.

Not quite a full 180 degrees but close enough. Warship International 1973 Issue 1 has a deckplan of this one too.
vasco de gama.jpg
Vasco da Gama
vasco de gama.jpg (27.84 KiB) Viewed 2720 times
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Re: Ironclad Armada-Free Source book

Postby murtalianconfederacy » Fri Apr 15, 2011 9:29 pm

Having had a quick look, I'm quite happy with doing the changed. From my source, however, it indicated that the La Plata class had widely spaced gunports that enabled it to fire ahead. I'll change the arcs to HIJK, however, and add the ram. Shouldn't add too much to the CRat...

And bugger, there my internet connection goes again. Damn. Will edit the design when I get on again
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Re: Ironclad Armada-Free Source book

Postby murtalianconfederacy » Sun Apr 17, 2011 11:12 am

I've given up my internet connection at home. I will still be on almost every day, but the times I will be on have been reduced dramatically.
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