Another whack at Space Fleet Omega

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thedugan
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Another whack at Space Fleet Omega

Postby thedugan » Tue Nov 28, 2006 3:30 am

Okay, I've moved this over to this forum, after cleaning them up a bit:
====================
Combat mechanics:

Defensive rating is armor+shields - some weapons may ignore shields, some ignore armor
Armor has a maximum value equal to tech level + 3
Shields has a maximum value equal to tech level

Ships have special defense "codes" that relate to particular weapon categories:

A = Actively-targeted
P = Passively-targeted
E = Energy weapon
K = Kinetic weapon

For example, a ship with "2 [AK]" has a base defense value of 2, which becomes 3 against

active or kinetic weapons, and 4 against a weapon that is both active and kinetic.


WEAPONS:
Main guns, Secondary/defensive guns, Point Defense, Missiles, Torpedoes, and Specials

A weapon (gun, torp, or missile) must be assigned either A or P and E or K when designed (there is no difference points-wise).

Guns are rated as d4,d6,d8,d10, or d12 - this represents the penetration mechanic. d4 through d8 is typically a cannon shell of some sort, d10 and d12 are always energy weapons.

cube root of ship size= ship signature

To Hit:
Fire Control is rated d4,d6,d8,d10, and d12 just like guns, but FC is WORSE with higher dice types. Roll below the signature value to hit.

If hit is indicated, roll gun dice indicated, roll OVER Defense to damage.


MISSILES:
You may use 'secondaries' vs missiles at long range, pt defense at short range.

You do not track individual missiles:

- launch a salvo - rated by d4,d6, etc....three values for missiles: Evasion, number per flight, Warhead penetration. Mark off a salvo on the ship sheet.

- missiles fired from short range(, or labeled as 'ultra fast') cannot be hit by secondaries.

- secondaries may fire at ANY missiles or fighters in range, point defense can only fire at 'incoming' missiles.

For example:
(evade/number/penetration)

d4/5d12/d6

d6/3d10/d8

d8/4d6/d10


Better have some 'antimissiles' and REALLY good point defense/secondaries

I'm thinking that ECM, EW, decoys, and 'Chaff' would be useful things to have vs missiles:
----INSERT DAN's ECM RULES-------
To-hit numbers can be affected by electronic warfare. Each ship has an EW value, which is applied to various tasks at the beginning of each turn.

ECM = Can only be applied to the ship itself.
ECCM = Applied to a specific target (only one per turn).

This split is secretly noted on the ship's record sheet.

The easiest thing I can come up with to deal with this in practice is to place D10s on the table indicating each ship's EW status. First, a die is placed indicating each ship's ECM value. Then, each die is reduced by the amount of ECCM applied to that target -- if the ECM is reduced to zero or below, the die is removed.

Finally, the die is replaced by a marker as follows:

1 = +1
2-3 = +2
4-6 = +3
7-10 = +4

ECM values above 10 are not allowed.

For example, if a die is showing "4", then it is replaced by a +3 target modifier marker.
----------End Dan's ECM rules--------


Process:
- secondary fire at missiles, both missiles and secondaries roll, higher number indicates winner.

- if missiles are lower, missiles loose a number of missiles equal to the secondary battery's roll. If missiles roll higher, no effect.

- Point defense may fire at ANY incoming missiles, same procedure as secondaries.

- roll for the number of missiles that hit ('number' value), subtract the number that are destroyed by secondary and pt defense fire.

- for each missile that makes it to the target, roll 'penetration' value.

- each point of 'penetration' in excess of armor/defense/screens is a point of damage scored on target.

- you could get even MESSIER, with warheads of various types at this point...
Nukes - d12 per penetration?


Movement:
Something akin to Iron Stars



Ship Size:
Ship size maximum is equal to 5 times tech level cubed.
- The 'Endeavour' from the show is tech level 3.
- Apollo is tech level '-1'
- circa 2006 just about reaches '0'


(max size for Endeavour's sister ships is 135 - maybe 5 times tech level squared?)

Ship Damage:
Threshold loss of systems similiar to FT:
1/4 damage -
1/2 damage - 1/2 move value(s), 1/2 the secondaries and primaries go.
3/4 damage - ???
No points left, ship inert....

Roll a d10 at each level, 3 or less, ship goes 'boom'...


'Specials' are limited by ship size:
size 1-2, none - these are basically gunboats....

size 3-5, one 'small' special system:
Command Deck, Shuttle Deck, Scrambler, Keel Gun

size 6-9, two small, or one large system:
(large sys's) - Long Range Sensors, Enhanced Command Deck, Fighter Bay, Spinal Cannon, Laboratory

I'm thinking that you'd divide the number of hull points by the number of 'specials', and every time you hit that number of damage points, you roll to take out a special system....

Hmmm.. but that doesn't address mains, secondaries, and point defenses...maybe include those. I need to make a list of systems and a spreadsheet....

Maybe a flat chance of loosing something every time damage gets past the defenses...8+ on a d10?

'Special Characters' used to negate effect of things like loosing guns, engines:

Engineer
Weapons
Marines
Helmsman
..etc...

SIMPLISTIC boarding and ground combat mechanics....
Last edited by thedugan on Tue Nov 28, 2006 3:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
Becuz I'm da friggin' ART FAIRY - dats why!

Big Bang = Let there be LIGHT!

thedugan
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Postby thedugan » Tue Nov 28, 2006 3:35 am

Hmm...

I said nothing about weapon range.

I didn't note any 'to hit' mods.

Any more holes?
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hundvig
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Postby hundvig » Tue Nov 28, 2006 3:44 pm

The missile system sounds like you'll be rolling buckets of dice, which is going to slow things down unless they're very limited in numbers.

And why are d10/d12 guns automatically energy weapons? That seems odd, at best. Less accurate but more penetration sounds more like a kinetic weapon to me, but I wouldn't restrict any die type to a particular weapon trait.

And you need Wave Motion Guns, of course. :)

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Postby thedugan » Tue Nov 28, 2006 6:09 pm

hundvig wrote:The missile system sounds like you'll be rolling buckets of dice, which is going to slow things down unless they're very limited in numbers.


Maybe, but in an earlier post on the SFO forum, Dan said he thought that missiles would be dominant....

Also, with the 'number' stat being so large, you don't have to track as many 'markers' on the board. I don't think that it'll be any worse than Starmada's hit-rof-dam d6's being rolled.

hundvig wrote:And why are d10/d12 guns automatically energy weapons? That seems odd, at best. Less accurate but more penetration sounds more like a kinetic weapon to me, but I wouldn't restrict any die type to a particular weapon trait.


Umm.. largely because a laser can penetrate better than a cannon shell.

By kinetic, I assume that you mean railguns/coilguns - those I classify as energy weapons (albeit with shells), not conventional cannons.

I see the 'top end' of any useful armor being in the 2-4 range, and shields/screens being above that. Hmm.. according to the rules as is, Endeavours max armor would be 6.

hundvig wrote:And you need Wave Motion Guns, of course. :)


A piece of special equipment I assume that you're submitting...
:-)

I wish I had a local group to play this with...
Becuz I'm da friggin' ART FAIRY - dats why!

Big Bang = Let there be LIGHT!

hundvig
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Postby hundvig » Tue Nov 28, 2006 7:30 pm

thedugan wrote:
hundvig wrote:And why are d10/d12 guns automatically energy weapons? That seems odd, at best. Less accurate but more penetration sounds more like a kinetic weapon to me, but I wouldn't restrict any die type to a particular weapon trait.


Umm.. largely because a laser can penetrate better than a cannon shell.

By kinetic, I assume that you mean railguns/coilguns - those I classify as energy weapons (albeit with shells), not conventional cannons.


Huh-what? Aside from debating about laser penetration, a kinetic weapon is something that deals damage by hitting its target with some kind of physical projectile. An energy weapon is an EM emitter of some kind, probably scoring damage by thermal or radiation effects delivered by beam or pulse. Right? Don't see how a railgun isn't an active-kinetic weapon for defense purposes.

thedugan wrote:
hundvig wrote:And you need Wave Motion Guns, of course. :)


A piece of special equipment I assume that you're submitting...
:-)


Not anytime soon. Still getting a feel for your version of the rules. I was halfway comfortable with Iron Stars:Omega, this is a bit of a change of pace.

Rich

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Postby go0gleplex » Tue Nov 28, 2006 7:56 pm

I'm going to chime in here a little bit...speculative thinking really. ;)

A kinetic shell impact does damage by mass and velocity. Once launched, it's velocity is finite and will eventually (many years later) come to a stand still if it hasn't hit anything. (even space has a drag coefficient). ;)

An energy beam does damage by energy transfer...limited only by the amount of power and level of focus available to it. So while a kinetic shell may be more consistent in its damage, the energy beam has a higher damage potential to it based on its power supply.

I think that's where Mike is going with the d10 and d12 being energy weapons.

Energy weapons are also going to be far more likely to hit than kinetic weapons....so missiles will be the long range weapon of choice, energy medium range, and kinetic most effective at short range...relative to the manueverability of the target and speed of projectile/beam.
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Postby thedugan » Tue Nov 28, 2006 9:13 pm

go0gleplex wrote:I'm going to chime in here a little bit...speculative thinking really. ;)


At this point, this whole thing is 'speculative thinking'....
:-)

go0gleplex wrote:A kinetic shell impact does damage by mass and velocity. Once launched, it's velocity is finite and will eventually (many years later) come to a stand still if it hasn't hit anything. (even space has a drag coefficient). ;)

An energy beam does damage by energy transfer...limited only by the amount of power and level of focus available to it. So while a kinetic shell may be more consistent in its damage, the energy beam has a higher damage potential to it based on its power supply.

I think that's where Mike is going with the d10 and d12 being energy weapons.


Hmm...
I was actually thinking that 'kinetic' weapons have a physical projectile, and have a significant portion of the damage they do being caused by the projectile or the warhead they carry.

Energy weapons are primarily dependant on the energy they possess.

Coilguns and Railguns only have such high damage potential due to the unusual dichotomy of mass and energy application available. They have such high power because the mechanism allows us to directly apply more energy than would otherwise be possible.

Given that I'm modeling the KEB thing by die types anyway, I'm inclined to drop it altogether. It adds a level of detail that I don't see the game needing....

That being said:
- d4 and d6 as being conventional explosives
- d6 and d8 are 'enhanced' penetrators
- d8 and d10 are Lower energy Beams and average rail/coil guns
- d10 and d12 are heavy rail/coil guns and enhanced radiation beam types.

..this make more sense?

go0gleplex wrote:Energy weapons are also going to be far more likely to hit than kinetic weapons....so missiles will be the long range weapon of choice, energy medium range, and kinetic most effective at short range...relative to the manueverability of the target and speed of projectile/beam.


Pretty much, but beams are not going to shine (well, in the real world anyway) at anything past 'short' range. At higher tech levels(say 3+), I'm open to them being more effective...
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Postby go0gleplex » Tue Nov 28, 2006 9:46 pm

I wasn't adding in explosive warhead factors. :P *chuckles*

In space combat, other than angle of attack and vector/velocity to or of the target...a successful hit depends on aspect, speed of projectile, and manuever.

Very simply put, the odds of actually hitting a target shrink as the maneuver window of the target becomes smaller. The manuever window being the zone in which the target can change aspect or manuever to generate a miss. The size of this window is determined by the size of the target vs the speed of the attack system. Hence, energy beams will have longer effective ranges than bullets will unless they have a very high diffusion rate. In the case of missiles, the ability to manuever makes up for some speed and allows accuracy at a greater range than what beams and bullets may have.

That's where I was going...:) True...it's more realistic than what SFO is meant to be...and i don't expect things to be modeled this way, but understanding that relationship can help establish "effective" max ranges.
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thedugan
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Postby thedugan » Tue Nov 28, 2006 10:24 pm

go0gleplex wrote:I wasn't adding in explosive warhead factors. :P *chuckles*

In space combat, other than angle of attack and vector/velocity to or of the target...a successful hit depends on aspect, speed of projectile, and manuever.

Very simply put, the odds of actually hitting a target shrink as the maneuver window of the target becomes smaller. The manuever window being the zone in which the target can change aspect or manuever to generate a miss. The size of this window is determined by the size of the target vs the speed of the attack system. Hence, energy beams will have longer effective ranges than bullets will unless they have a very high diffusion rate. In the case of missiles, the ability to manuever makes up for some speed and allows accuracy at a greater range than what beams and bullets may have.


I was only addressing penetration, not the ability to hit the target - those are two different things.

to whit:

>cube root of ship size= ship signature
>To Hit:
>Fire Control is rated d4,d6,d8,d10, and d12 just like guns, but FC is
> WORSE with higher dice types. Roll below the signature value to hit.
> If hit is indicated, roll gun dice indicated, roll OVER Defense to damage.

You roll 'to hit', and IF a hit is indicated, THEN you roll the dice for the weapon. In most games, the two are essntially ONE roll, in this version of SFO, it's two rolls.

In SFB, Fusion Beams obviously have a high diffusion rate, as damage falls off greatly with range.

..other than clarifying things a bit, I agree with your summary.

go0gleplex wrote:That's where I was going...:) True...it's more realistic than what SFO is meant to be...and i don't expect things to be modeled this way, but understanding that relationship can help establish "effective" max ranges.


I'm not expecting SFO to be horribly realistic, just not terribly implausible to the slightly-above-average Sci-Fi fan.

Anyone have any suggestions as to scale? That would let me nail down the ranges a bit more.

That being said, some 'ranges' in earth diameters:
- Cannons ------ 0.1
- Beams -------- 0.3
- coil/railguns -- 1
- Missiles ------- 3

12,756.3 km is the Earth's diameter according to http://www.factbook.org/wikipedia/en/e/ea/earth_1.html

So, that being said, and assuming a standard cannon has a range of one, and we round Earth to 10,000 km, one hex is 1000 km...

So, ranges at TL 1:
- Cannons ------ 1
- Beams -------- 3
- coil/railguns -- 10
- Missiles ------- 30

..this is just a starting point.
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Postby hundvig » Wed Nov 29, 2006 3:55 pm

Now I'm really confused. Isn't a larger weapon die type less accurate but more likely to pentrate, and vice versa? That should make beams d4-d6 weapons if they're supposed to be highly accurate, while "dumb" cannon shells should tend toward the d10-d12 end of the range, right?

Hell with it. Why not just define weapons as active/passive and kinetic/energy as desired and forget about making any given die type a specific sort of gun? I'm sure you can find some sort of handwave to justify any particular combination of accuracy/penetration for any type of weaponry, anyway. For ex, a d12 railgun could just throw a single big hunk of iron, while a d8 railgun might throw a cloud of smaller penetrators, and a d4 railgun might chuck a relatively low-velocity smart shell that can vector in on the target.

For that matter, why not decouple accuracy and penetration completely? Assign a weapon both stats seperately, so you could have a d12/d12 supergun, or a cheap d4/d4 popper.

Or is that too much like Starmada?

Rich


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