SFOTCS revisited

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SFOTCS revisited

Postby mj12games » Mon Dec 04, 2006 11:32 pm

No offense to Dugan or slight to the work he's done is meant... but it's not quite what I had in mind for SFO. After my brain drifted to the idea of "Starmada Retro" over Thanksgiving, I have been more and more drawn to a fleet-scale game-- compatible with Starmada or otherwise.

Thus, after jotting some ideas down, I present...

-----

SHIP CHARACTERISTICS (see attached ship card)

CLASS: The specific design class to which the ship belongs.

COMBAT RATING: The point cost of the ship, used when balancing forces.

SIZE: The number of hull points and the size class of the ship (e.g., “6 [C]” means a C-class vessel with 6 hull points). Available size classes are B (7-9 hull points), C (5-7), D (3-5), and F (1-3).

(Note: B=Battleship, C=Cruiser, D=Destroyer, F=Frigate… happy? :))

THRUST: The maximum number of hexes the ship may move while still changing its heading by one hexside (60°).

ATTACK: The number of dice the ship rolls when making a cannon attack, and the range at which this attack can be made.

DEFENSE: The number a die roll must exceed in order to cause damage to the ship.

MISSILES: The number, range, to-hit number, and damage value of any missiles carried by the ship.

DAMAGE TRACK: As the ship takes damage, the boxes in this section are crossed off, reducing the ship’s thrust, attack, and defense ratings. When all the boxes have been crossed off, the ship has been destroyed.

ACTIVATION

Ships are grouped into divisions. All ships in a division must be of the same size class (e.g., all C-class or all F-class) although they may be of different design classes.

Ships are activated by division. The first ship in the division is moved and then makes its attacks (if any) before the second ship is moved, and so on. Once all ships in the division have moved and attacked, the next division is activated.

MOVEMENT

When activated, a specific movement order is declared for the division. Each ship in the division must then perform this movement order.

Steady As She Goes: A ship using this movement order is at battle speed. It must move a number of hexes equal to at least one half its thrust rating (rounded up), and it cannot move further than its full thrust rating. Once during its movement, the ship may change its facing by one hexside (60°).

All Ahead Full: A ship that moves “All Ahead Full” is pushing its engines to the limit. It is moved in a straight line a number of hexes at least equal its thrust rating and no further than twice its thrust rating. The ship may not change its facing.

Come About: A ship which “Comes About” is limited to moving no more than half its thrust rating (rounded down). Once during its movement, the ship may change its facing by one hexside (60°). At the conclusion of its move, the ship may then make a second one hexside (60°) facing change.

A ship that “Comes About” may combine its facing changes and make a two hexside (120°) turn at the conclusion of its movement.

Full Stop: A “Full Stop” order is used to halt movement. The ship is not moved at all, although it may change its facing by one hexside. In exchange for this lack of movement, the ship may re-roll any attack dice that fail to hit.

Reverse Course: A ship that chooses to “Reverse Course” does not move at all; instead, its counter is pivoted three hexsides (180°).

Note that this does not represent a lack of movement; rather, it indicates that the ship has used its available thrust to counteract its momentum and begin accelerating the other way. During the completion of this maneuver, the ship ends up in roughly the same place, but moving in the opposite direction. Therefore, the counter’s location is not changed on the board.

COMBAT

There are two types of attack that can be made: cannon attacks and missile attacks. The basic cannon attack is described below; afterwards, the ways in which missile attacks differ are outlined.

CANNONS

The ship’s cannon attacks are defined by its “attack” value, given as a number of dice and a range. A ship can only attack a target within this range. The number of dice rolled in an attack depends upon the arc into which the target falls (see attached arc diagram):

If the target is in the front arc, then all available dice may be rolled.
If the target is in the port or starboard arc, then only half of the available dice can be rolled (rounded down).
If the target is in the rear arc, then no dice may be rolled.

Cannon dice may be split among different targets, with the following exceptions:

Only one target may be attacked in a given arc—thus, a ship may attack up to three targets, one to the front, one to the port, and one to the starboard.
The number of dice rolled against a single target cannot exceed the arc restrictions listed above.
The total number of dice rolled against all targets cannot exceed the total number of dice available.

The to-hit number depends upon the target’s size class:

If the target is of the same size class, the to-hit value is 4+.
If the target is of a smaller size class, the to-hit value is 5+.
If the target is of a larger size class, the to-hit value is 3+.

The dice are now rolled; each die that equals or exceeds the to-hit number scores a hit on the target. The dice may be modified based on the following:

If the attacker is in the target’s front arc, there is a -1 penalty to each die roll.
If the attacker is in the target’s rear arc, there is a +1 bonus to each die roll.

Thus, if attacking a target of a smaller size class from that target’s front arc, only rolls of 6 would score hits.

Any dice that score hits are now re-rolled; each die that exceeds the target’s defense value causes damage to the target. Those that do not exceed the defense value have no effect.

Finally, each die that penetrates the defenses is rolled for damage; the number on the die indicates the number of boxes checked off of the target’s damage track. Damage is checked off first from top to bottom. When all boxes in the first column have been checked, move to the second column, and so on.

Any damage die that comes up a 6 does not cause any boxes to be checked off the damage track—instead, that die causes a critical hit (see Effects of Damage).

MISSILES

Missile attacks are conducted in the same manner as cannon attacks, with the following exceptions:

1) Missiles may be fired at any target within range, regardless of firing arc.
2) Missiles have a fixed to-hit value which is not modified by the target’s size class or deflection.
3) Missiles are one-shot weapons.
4) Any number of missiles may be fired in a single turn; however, all missiles fired must attack the same target.
5) Each missile that gets through the target’s defenses rolls a number of damage dice equal to its damage value, instead of just one.

EFFECTS OF DAMAGE

As noted above, when a ship takes damage, boxes are crossed off of its damage track. This will have the effect of reducing the ship’s thrust, attack, and defense values. In each row of the damage track, there are numbers above the damage boxes. For each row, the number above the first unchecked box is the ship’s current value.

For example, the Sycamore has a “4” above the first two boxes in the thrust row, and a “3” above the next two boxes. Once the second box has been checked, the thrust rating drops to 3; after the fourth box has been checked, the thrust is reduced to 2, and so on.

In the attack row, the value given is the number of cannon dice remaining for the ship; attack range is unaffected by damage.

Note the black boxes at the end of each row. These do not count as damage boxes, and cannot be checked as damage—thus, if only the black boxes remain, the ship is destroyed. Their purpose is as “placeholders” so that a ship that has lost all of the boxes in the thrust row, for example, will still have a thrust value.

CRITICAL HITS

???
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Postby underling » Mon Dec 04, 2006 11:58 pm

Huh...
Imagine that.
Spitting Fire in space.
:)
Kevin

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Re: SFOTCS revisited

Postby thedugan » Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:29 am

cricket wrote:No offense to Dugan or slight to the work he's done is meant... but it's not quite what I had in mind for SFO. After my brain drifted to the idea of "Starmada Retro" over Thanksgiving, I have been more and more drawn to a fleet-scale game-- compatible with Starmada or otherwise.


I just made it too complicated for you, didn't I? The last game I played more than a tie or two was Star Fleet Battles, so maybe I've got more tolerance for it.....:)

It's okay, I was stumped at costing, though I do have a list of systems scribbled down. I'll save it off, and use some of it for "Starlight"...or all of it.



..and I DID get you off the stump!
:-)

cricket wrote:SHIP CHARACTERISTICS (see attached ship card)

CLASS: The specific design class to which the ship belongs.

COMBAT RATING: The point cost of the ship, used when balancing forces.

SIZE: The number of hull points and the size class of the ship (e.g., “6 [C]” means a C-class vessel with 6 hull points). Available size classes are B (7-9 hull points), C (5-7), D (3-5), and F (1-3).

(Note: B=Battleship, C=Cruiser, D=Destroyer, F=Frigate… happy? :))


Makes visualization easier, though I wasn't clamoring for this....


cricket wrote:THRUST: The maximum number of hexes the ship may move while still changing its heading by one hexside (60°).

ATTACK: The number of dice the ship rolls when making a cannon attack, and the range at which this attack can be made.

DEFENSE: The number a die roll must exceed in order to cause damage to the ship.

MISSILES: The number, range, to-hit number, and damage value of any missiles carried by the ship.


No beam weapons? Starmada has beams, or what I'd consider beams....


cricket wrote:DAMAGE TRACK: As the ship takes damage, the boxes in this section are crossed off, reducing the ship’s thrust, attack, and defense ratings. When all the boxes have been crossed off, the ship has been destroyed.

ACTIVATION

Ships are grouped into divisions. All ships in a division must be of the same size class (e.g., all C-class or all F-class) although they may be of different design classes.

Ships are activated by division. The first ship in the division is moved and then makes its attacks (if any) before the second ship is moved, and so on. Once all ships in the division have moved and attacked, the next division is activated.

MOVEMENT

When activated, a specific movement order is declared for the division. Each ship in the division must then perform this movement order.

Steady As She Goes: A ship using this movement order is at battle speed. It must move a number of hexes equal to at least one half its thrust rating (rounded up), and it cannot move further than its full thrust rating. Once during its movement, the ship may change its facing by one hexside (60°).

All Ahead Full: A ship that moves “All Ahead Full” is pushing its engines to the limit. It is moved in a straight line a number of hexes at least equal its thrust rating and no further than twice its thrust rating. The ship may not change its facing.

Come About: A ship which “Comes About” is limited to moving no more than half its thrust rating (rounded down). Once during its movement, the ship may change its facing by one hexside (60°). At the conclusion of its move, the ship may then make a second one hexside (60°) facing change.

A ship that “Comes About” may combine its facing changes and make a two hexside (120°) turn at the conclusion of its movement.

Full Stop: A “Full Stop” order is used to halt movement. The ship is not moved at all, although it may change its facing by one hexside. In exchange for this lack of movement, the ship may re-roll any attack dice that fail to hit.

Reverse Course: A ship that chooses to “Reverse Course” does not move at all; instead, its counter is pivoted three hexsides (180°).

Note that this does not represent a lack of movement; rather, it indicates that the ship has used its available thrust to counteract its momentum and begin accelerating the other way. During the completion of this maneuver, the ship ends up in roughly the same place, but moving in the opposite direction. Therefore, the counter’s location is not changed on the board.


...what? no "Brace for Impact"?
:-)


cricket wrote:COMBAT

There are two types of attack that can be made: cannon attacks and missile attacks. The basic cannon attack is described below; afterwards, the ways in which missile attacks differ are outlined.

CANNONS

The ship’s cannon attacks are defined by its “attack” value, given as a number of dice and a range. A ship can only attack a target within this range. The number of dice rolled in an attack depends upon the arc into which the target falls (see attached arc diagram):

If the target is in the front arc, then all available dice may be rolled.
If the target is in the port or starboard arc, then only half of the available dice can be rolled (rounded down).
If the target is in the rear arc, then no dice may be rolled.

Cannon dice may be split among different targets, with the following exceptions:

Only one target may be attacked in a given arc—thus, a ship may attack up to three targets, one to the front, one to the port, and one to the starboard.
The number of dice rolled against a single target cannot exceed the arc restrictions listed above.
The total number of dice rolled against all targets cannot exceed the total number of dice available.

The to-hit number depends upon the target’s size class:

If the target is of the same size class, the to-hit value is 4+.
If the target is of a smaller size class, the to-hit value is 5+.
If the target is of a larger size class, the to-hit value is 3+.

The dice are now rolled; each die that equals or exceeds the to-hit number scores a hit on the target. The dice may be modified based on the following:

If the attacker is in the target’s front arc, there is a -1 penalty to each die roll.
If the attacker is in the target’s rear arc, there is a +1 bonus to each die roll.

Thus, if attacking a target of a smaller size class from that target’s front arc, only rolls of 6 would score hits.

Any dice that score hits are now re-rolled; each die that exceeds the target’s defense value causes damage to the target. Those that do not exceed the defense value have no effect.

Finally, each die that penetrates the defenses is rolled for damage; the number on the die indicates the number of boxes checked off of the target’s damage track. Damage is checked off first from top to bottom. When all boxes in the first column have been checked, move to the second column, and so on.

Any damage die that comes up a 6 does not cause any boxes to be checked off the damage track—instead, that die causes a critical hit (see Effects of Damage).

MISSILES

Missile attacks are conducted in the same manner as cannon attacks, with the following exceptions:

1) Missiles may be fired at any target within range, regardless of firing arc.
2) Missiles have a fixed to-hit value which is not modified by the target’s size class or deflection.
3) Missiles are one-shot weapons.
4) Any number of missiles may be fired in a single turn; however, all missiles fired must attack the same target.
5) Each missile that gets through the target’s defenses rolls a number of damage dice equal to its damage value, instead of just one.

EFFECTS OF DAMAGE

As noted above, when a ship takes damage, boxes are crossed off of its damage track. This will have the effect of reducing the ship’s thrust, attack, and defense values. In each row of the damage track, there are numbers above the damage boxes. For each row, the number above the first unchecked box is the ship’s current value.

For example, the Sycamore has a “4” above the first two boxes in the thrust row, and a “3” above the next two boxes. Once the second box has been checked, the thrust rating drops to 3; after the fourth box has been checked, the thrust is reduced to 2, and so on.

In the attack row, the value given is the number of cannon dice remaining for the ship; attack range is unaffected by damage.

Note the black boxes at the end of each row. These do not count as damage boxes, and cannot be checked as damage—thus, if only the black boxes remain, the ship is destroyed. Their purpose is as “placeholders” so that a ship that has lost all of the boxes in the thrust row, for example, will still have a thrust value.

CRITICAL HITS

???


A little simple, but not bad. I can't think of anything that I'd add right now that wouldn't slow things down with a lot of ships on the board.

I sort of liked the 'dicing war' I had for missiles.

- you've got no 'boarding combat'

A short List of systems/crits:
Command Deck
Shuttle Deck
Scrambler
Keel Gun
Long Range Sensors
Enhanced Command Deck
Fighter Bay
Spinal Cannon
Laboratory


No provision for 'Special Characters' used to negate effect of things like loosing guns, engines:
Engineer
Weapons
Marines
Helmsman
..etc.....you're talking about a game centered around a TV show.


underling wrote:Huh...
Imagine that.
Spitting Fire in space.


..I did tell Dan that I saw the rules for it as potentially usable, but I was thinking of the fighter rules.
:)

It's got a FEW more things in it....
Becuz I'm da friggin' ART FAIRY - dats why!

Big Bang = Let there be LIGHT!

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Re: SFOTCS revisited

Postby mj12games » Tue Dec 05, 2006 4:37 pm

thedugan wrote:I just made it too complicated for you, didn't I? The last game I played more than a tie or two was Star Fleet Battles, so maybe I've got more tolerance for it.....:)


Yeah, a bit complicated. Not that I mind in principle -- a lot of your ideas might be good to look at for Iron Stars -- but I wanted SFO to be more fast-playing.

..and I DID get you off the stump!
:-)


Yes, you did. Either you, or the termites in my butt...

cricket wrote:(Note: B=Battleship, C=Cruiser, D=Destroyer, F=Frigate… happy? :))


Makes visualization easier, though I wasn't clamoring for this....


You weren't, but others have been... ;)

No beam weapons? Starmada has beams, or what I'd consider beams....


Maybe I should be more clear... I'm using "cannon" to refer to any weapon that is not self-propelled (i.e., not a missile or torpedo). So, laser beams would count...

At this level of abstraction, the specific type of weapon is irrelevant; all that matters is the range and the number of attack dice.

A little simple, but not bad. I can't think of anything that I'd add right now that wouldn't slow things down with a lot of ships on the board.

I sort of liked the 'dicing war' I had for missiles.


Actually, I liked that idea too -- it was just too unwieldy for this scale.

However... ;)

In the shower this morning, I thought of how something like it could be kept in the game without slowing it down much at all.

Basically, in addition to a defense number, each ship also has "Point Defense" dice -- e.g., the defense box would read "3/2d". These dice are rolled in response to a missile attack, and the results are compared Risk-style.

For example, 4 missiles are attacking a ship with 2d point defense. The 4 attack dice are rolled, coming up 1, 2, 3, and 6. The roll of 1 is discarded immediately (as there's always the chance that something goes wrong even if the target has no PD). The PD dice are rolled, coming up 2 and 6. The two highest dice are compared, 6 to 6 -- ties go to the defender, so the missile is blocked. The second-highest dice are compared, 3 to 2 -- that missile gets through, as does the last missile. Therefore, two hits are scored.

This actually eliminates a die roll, rather than adding one, as the to-hit roll and penetration roll are done away with in exchange for the PD roll.
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Re: SFOTCS revisited

Postby thedugan » Tue Dec 05, 2006 6:15 pm

cricket wrote:
thedugan wrote:I just made it too complicated for you, didn't I? The last game I played more than a tie or two was Star Fleet Battles, so maybe I've got more tolerance for it.....:)

Yeah, a bit complicated. Not that I mind in principle -- a lot of your ideas might be good to look at for Iron Stars -- but I wanted SFO to be more fast-playing.


I assumed as much, and honestly, I had planned on carving back the 'details' as I got feedback. I've never written a 'low-resolution' game before, and I haven't played many.

I also got no feedback on things I needed to cut. I did get some useful feedback, and want to say thanks to those of you that gave me some.
If anyone is interested in pursuing the version I put up for something else, post on that thread and we'll see what happens. Like I said, I've got another game (actually, several) on the back burner...

cricket wrote:
thedugan wrote:No beam weapons? Starmada has beams, or what I'd consider beams....


Maybe I should be more clear... I'm using "cannon" to refer to any weapon that is not self-propelled (i.e., not a missile or torpedo). So, laser beams would count...

At this level of abstraction, the specific type of weapon is irrelevant; all that matters is the range and the number of attack dice.


I had that thought, but wanted to bring this thought to the discussion.

I actually prefer the term 'gun' for genericized direct-fire weapons, but they have essentially the same connotation.

If they can't be cannons of the type we use today, and they are always going to be some sort of directed-energy weapon, why NOT use 'beam'?

If we use cannons in the game as we know and use them today, I'd argue that they'd either have to be rail/coil guns or have WAY too short ranged at any kind of reasonable range.

While I'm thinking about it, are you planning on having any 'special effects' for weapons (ie +1 to damage if at close range)?

Have you a list of 'special gear' and/or crits?

Possible things you can borrow From Starmada:
Cargo
Cloak
Contruction Bay
Decoys
ECW?
Fighters?
--(some sort of 'factor' that treats it like Missiles, vs tracked entities...)
Long Range sensors
Marines
Mines?
Repair Bay
Lab
Sunbursts
TDAR
Troops
Vehicle Bays

..hmm, don't have Iron Stars handy.

I'd limit it to one 'special' per so many hits, or something like 1 for DD's, 2 for CA's, 3 for BB's....

cricket wrote:
thedugan wrote:A little simple, but not bad. I can't think of anything that I'd add right now that wouldn't slow things down with a lot of ships on the board.

I sort of liked the 'dicing war' I had for missiles.


Actually, I liked that idea too -- it was just too unwieldy for this scale.

However... ;)

In the shower this morning, I thought of how something like it could be kept in the game without slowing it down much at all.

Basically, in addition to a defense number, each ship also has "Point Defense" dice -- e.g., the defense box would read "3/2d". These dice are rolled in response to a missile attack, and the results are compared Risk-style.

For example, 4 missiles are attacking a ship with 2d point defense. The 4 attack dice are rolled, coming up 1, 2, 3, and 6. The roll of 1 is discarded immediately (as there's always the chance that something goes wrong even if the target has no PD). The PD dice are rolled, coming up 2 and 6. The two highest dice are compared, 6 to 6 -- ties go to the defender, so the missile is blocked. The second-highest dice are compared, 3 to 2 -- that missile gets through, as does the last missile. Therefore, two hits are scored.

This actually eliminates a die roll, rather than adding one, as the to-hit roll and penetration roll are done away with in exchange for the PD roll.


I think this is the first time I've actually influenced the mechanics of any MJ12 game...
:-)

Is anyone else gonna add stuff to the Omegapedia?
Becuz I'm da friggin' ART FAIRY - dats why!

Big Bang = Let there be LIGHT!

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Critical Hits

Postby mj12games » Mon Dec 11, 2006 7:46 pm

Some more thoughts for a Monday...

CRITICAL HITS

Whenever a "6" is rolled for damage, instead of marking boxes off the damage track, a critical hit has been caused. Re-roll the die, with the result indicating the type of critical inflicted:

1: Fire Control = -1 to all attack dice rolls
2: Engines = ship's thrust rating is reduced to 1/2 (rounded down)
3: Weapons = ship's attack dice are reduced to 1/2 (rounded down)
4: Defensive Systems = ship's defensive rating is reduced to 1/2 (rounded down)
5: Hull Breach = Roll one die in each end phase; 1-3 gives the number of damage boxes checked off; 4-6 means breach has been repaired.
6: Reactor = ship explodes

A ship cannot take each type of critical hit more than once--i.e., if the ship has already taken an engines critical, any further roll of 2 would be "no effect". Exception: if a hull breach is repaired, a subsequent hull breach may be opened.
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Re: Critical Hits

Postby underling » Mon Dec 11, 2006 8:08 pm

cricket wrote:CRITICAL HITS
Whenever a "6" is rolled for damage, instead of marking boxes off the damage track, a critical hit has been caused. Re-roll the die, with the result indicating the type of critical inflicted...
A ship cannot take each type of critical hit more than once--i.e., if the ship has already taken an engines critical, any further roll of 2 would be "no effect". Exception: if a hull breach is repaired, a subsequent hull breach may be opened.

Ah heck, why not?
Stack the darn things.
:)
Kevin

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Re: Critical Hits

Postby mj12games » Mon Dec 11, 2006 8:59 pm

underling wrote:Ah heck, why not?
Stack the darn things.


'cause then you'd have a situation in which you're taking 1/2 of 1/2 of the ship's thrust rating, for example...
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Re: Critical Hits

Postby underling » Mon Dec 11, 2006 9:53 pm

cricket wrote:
underling wrote:Ah heck, why not?
Stack the darn things.

'cause then you'd have a situation in which you're taking 1/2 of 1/2 of the ship's thrust rating, for example...

Not necessarily.
A second crit could completely destroy the particular system, or provide a further -1.
It works in the god of games, Grand Fleets. No reason it can't work here also.
:wink:
Second crit effects examples:

1: Fire Control = -2 to all attack dice rolls
2: Engines = ship's thrust rating gonzies.
3: Weapons = ship's attack dice are gonzies
4: Defensive Systems = ship's defensive rating is gonzies (1+ maybe?)
5: Hull Breach = Roll one die in each end phase; 1-3 gives the number of damage boxes checked off; 4-6 means breach has been repaired. Roll this for each breach.
6: Reactor = ship explodes. Won't happen a second time.
Kevin

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Postby thedugan » Tue Dec 12, 2006 2:35 pm

I've edited this into DOC format, and posted it over on the SFO Yahoo list.
Becuz I'm da friggin' ART FAIRY - dats why!

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