First post, First play, First impression

The Universal Game of Starship Combat
underling
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Postby underling » Thu Dec 04, 2008 7:46 pm

cricket wrote:
Ken_Burnside wrote:I think I may be the only person other than Parduz who's bitched to Dan about the dice herding in Starmada.
The problem isn't the sheer number of dice. It's the iterations.

Huh. I'd always thought your concern was with the number of dice, not the iterations.
The problem is that, if you don't like the three-roll system, there's not much that can be done about it. That is the heart of Starmada -- everything else is details that can (and have) been changed via optional rules.
But the "Roll to-hit", "Roll penetration", "Roll damage" system has been there from the beginning. If you like it, you'll love Starmada: if not, you won't.
This isn't to say I'm opposed to looking for solutions -- just that this is the one part of the game that is going to be highly resistant to change.

My opinion is that Starmada is what it is, and shouldn't change.
And that is a squadron level game.
Now a *fleet level* game *should* have a faster and more streamlined damage resolution system.
Hmmm...
"Starmada Fleet Action"
That'd be kind of cool.
:wink:
Kevin

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Postby Ken_Burnside » Thu Dec 04, 2008 8:20 pm

cricket wrote:
Ken_Burnside wrote:I think I may be the only person other than Parduz who's bitched to Dan about the dice herding in Starmada.

The problem isn't the sheer number of dice. It's the iterations.


Huh. I'd always thought your concern was with the number of dice, not the iterations.


It's a bit of both - Roll & Count gets slow when there are more than 10 dice at a time on it. And keep in mind, I still play 'mada every now and then, so I don't hate it to the point where I won't play the game.

The problem is that, if you don't like the three-roll system, there's not much that can be done about it. That is the heart of Starmada -- everything else is details that can (and have) been changed via optional rules.


On this I pretty much agree; it has some very pretty statistics, and it's very good on "I don't have to remember nuthin' but 1-2 is Engine, 3-4 is Shields, 5-6 is Weapons, and Odds are Hull Hits". But it still has a handling time cost.

I put a lot of work into cutting down handling time in Squadron Strike, because it became clear that once you got over the hurdle of learning the game, that handling time was the big time sink in completing battles.

One playtester, the week before Origins, came up with a brilliant suggestion for SS's damage allocation system. Which I was opposed to, in large part because "Oh my god...I've got to re-do umptizillion formulas on the SSD display page! Aiiiagh!"

But the "Roll to-hit", "Roll penetration", "Roll damage" system has been there from the beginning. If you like it, you'll love Starmada: if not, you won't.


I disagree. I enjoy Starmada, but I think the cascading re-rolls are about my least favorite part. I think your zoom to boom ratio is skewed a bit high to boom for my tastes, but that is just a taste difference.

This isn't to say I'm opposed to looking for solutions -- just that this is the one part of the game that is going to be highly resistant to change.


The short answer is "It works, and nothing you can change is going to make both me happy and not piss off the vastly more numerous fan base. They're more important than I am."

I'll play 'mada and herd dice when I do so. If I see a clever idea that might solve the issue, I will...but this is one of those fundamental design decisions that not only can't be changed, shoulddn't be changed without a very good reason. And neither I nor Pazur constitute even a bad reason, let alone a reason worth listening to.

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Postby thedugan » Thu Dec 04, 2008 9:12 pm

underling wrote:My opinion is that Starmada is what it is, and shouldn't change.
And that is a squadron level game.


FWIW, I feel the same way....

Starmada has had a LOT of thought put into it, it's well balanced, and you'd REALLY p*** off those with a vested interest in it....

underling wrote:Now a *fleet level* game *should* have a faster and more streamlined damage resolution system.
Hmmm...
"Starmada Fleet Action"
That'd be kind of cool.


Dan's come up with at least two of those, but I don't think he was happy with 'em...

I still have a copy floating around ....but I didn't like the limited options available in them....
Becuz I'm da friggin' ART FAIRY - dats why!

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Postby Parduz » Fri Dec 05, 2008 1:21 am

Cough!
Seems to me that we're going a bit too far...
I don't know if it is the passion for the game (OT: i like this forum a lot! Passionate players and game designers that discuss about everything! a dream!) or somewhat i have said.... but i don't want that Daniel (Cricket? do you like more to use nicknames or real names?) changes Starmada!
If the game is like it is it have some good reasons for sure.

All what i'm searching for is to find a way that fills my needs, and asking for a bit of help doing things (the probability math) that are a out from my formal school and knowledge.
If i can find a way to roll only one time to solve the attacks, and if that way is liked by more players, that's even better. But really, i can't ask to change a well tested game like Starmada.

Said this, some replies:


underling wrote:Or...
You all could play with smaller ships with fewer weapons.

We have Silent Death for this. What we was searching for was a game with huge ships and Starmada is one of the answers, and maybe the best.
The whole Silent Death map fit just a Starmada hex. We like this change, and we want that insane amount of cannons for each battery :)



jimbeau wrote:Finally, you may be coming off of a history of old-school, chart-based gaming (nothing wrong with that) and thus some of Starmada may seem alien to you....

Not really. We have abandoned old "chart-based" games from many years. We are a group of 20-30 players, so we play dungeon-crawl games, RPGs, skirmish games and so on with the same frequency... the "hard-core" players plays Axis and Allies every time, now superseeded by The War of the Ring). As i've said, we have not so much time to play (3 hours at max) so we have ceased to play some long games (i really miss Car Wars...sigh).
But the long games we still plays must have "short turns": Game of Thrones, Silent Death and many others all falls in the category of long games, but allows fast rounds.
jimbeau wrote:Come over to my house and we'll play and I can show you how I do it at the conventions. :)
I'd like this.... where you live? :)




cricket wrote:The table is derived by combining the chance to hit and the chance of penetrating the shields. For example, to-hit 3+ yields a 67% probability, and shields 5 yields a 17% probability, for an overall 11% chance of causing damage. This is roughly 1 in 6, so on the table if you cross reference to-hit 3+ with shields 5, you get 6+.

Thanks, that's what i've asked for.....
cricket wrote:Further, it doesn't account for the fact that a 3/1 weapon will act differently than a 1/3.
....and this is what i'm trying to figure out, playing with excel and a lot of math that i don't handle so well.
Have you any table, graph, formula or a Rosetta stone that can show this difference?

Thanks to all for the tips and the whole discussion. Have i said that i like this forum? :)

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Postby jimbeau » Sat Dec 06, 2008 3:45 pm

I miss car wars too.

"Bangers and Mash" is a car combat game I've wanted to put out for a long time, I even have rules written, playtested somewhat and in the list of things to do before I die.

Bangers and Mash is a complete car combat system, but with a twist. This is not your run-of-the-mill car combat game, with lasers, mines, and reflective armor. Rather it attempts to model the fast-paced and dangerous world of the professional Demolition Derby driver.

Sprinkled across the US and UK, there are hundreds of these gladiatorial contests staged each weekend. Banger Racing or Smash Derbies pit men, machines, and sometime mud against one another.

Bangers and Mash is not your Dad’s car combat game, but at least its fun, so grab a cold beverage from the land of sky-blue water and put together the best Derby Machine you can muster. Pit your skills against your buddy’s, work the kinks out of your strategy and break some stuff!

While we’ve provided players with stats for dozens of cars, the real strengths are in its vehicular creation system, wherein players can model any common child’s small scale car toy and beat the crap out of his or her friends and loved-ones. Bangers and Mash encourages players to be creative, use their imagination and have fun, which is the way wargaming should be.


I don't have a complete ruleset yet, but I got the intro NAILED! Makes you wanna buy it doesn't it :)

Anyway, If you've given up on chart games, why do you want a chart to play Starmada? :D

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Postby underling » Sat Dec 06, 2008 5:53 pm

jimbeau wrote:I miss car wars too.
"Bangers and Mash" is a car combat game I've wanted to put out for a long time, I even have rules written, playtested somewhat and in the list of things to do before I die.
Bangers and Mash is a complete car combat system, but with a twist. This is not your run-of-the-mill car combat game, with lasers, mines, and reflective armor. Rather it attempts to model the fast-paced and dangerous world of the professional Demolition Derby driver.
Sprinkled across the US and UK, there are hundreds of these gladiatorial contests staged each weekend. Banger Racing or Smash Derbies pit men, machines, and sometime mud against one another.
Bangers and Mash is not your Dad’s car combat game, but at least its fun, so grab a cold beverage from the land of sky-blue water and put together the best Derby Machine you can muster. Pit your skills against your buddy’s, work the kinks out of your strategy and break some stuff!
While we’ve provided players with stats for dozens of cars, the real strengths are in its vehicular creation system, wherein players can model any common child’s small scale car toy and beat the Carp out of his or her friends and loved-ones. Bangers and Mash encourages players to be creative, use their imagination and have fun, which is the way wargaming should be.

I don't have a complete ruleset yet, but I got the intro NAILED! Makes you wanna buy it doesn't it :)
Anyway, If you've given up on chart games, why do you want a chart to play Starmada? :D

I'd love to have a Car Wars style game.
And I can't tell you how many times I've suggested that genre to Dan.
That way I could use all of the Matchbox scale cars I bought to use with the Dark Future boardgame that GW put out 15-20 years ago. I've got a lot of foot models, in addition to a lot of the plastic and lead vehilcles from that system.
Just no ruleset.
*sigh*
Mad Kevin

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Postby thedugan » Sat Dec 06, 2008 6:12 pm

jimbeau wrote:"Bangers and Mash" is a car combat game I've wanted to put out for a long time, I even have rules written, playtested somewhat and in the list of things to do before I die.

...so grab a cold beverage from the land of sky-blue water...



"land of sky blue waters" - heh! I miss the cigarette commercials, too - even if I never did start that particular habit.

I was around back when Car Wars came out, just never got into it, and at the time it didn't look like that great a game. No one I knew played it, or was interested in it.

TWERPS, on the other hand....
:)
Becuz I'm da friggin' ART FAIRY - dats why!

Big Bang = Let there be LIGHT!

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Postby jimbeau » Sat Dec 06, 2008 8:45 pm

underling wrote:I'd love to have a Car Wars style game.
And I can't tell you how many times I've suggested that genre to Dan.
That way I could use all of the Matchbox scale cars I bought to use with the Dark Future boardgame that GW put out 15-20 years ago. I've got a lot of foot models, in addition to a lot of the plastic and lead vehilcles from that system.
Just no ruleset.
*sigh*
Mad Kevin


Thing is, I'd come at it from a quasi-realistic angle and I think you were wanting to head down a different path

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Postby underling » Sat Dec 06, 2008 9:00 pm

jimbeau wrote:
underling wrote:I'd love to have a Car Wars style game.
And I can't tell you how many times I've suggested that genre to Dan.
That way I could use all of the Matchbox scale cars I bought to use with the Dark Future boardgame that GW put out 15-20 years ago. I've got a lot of foot models, in addition to a lot of the plastic and lead vehilcles from that system.
Just no ruleset.
*sigh*
Mad Kevin

Thing is, I'd come at it from a quasi-realistic angle and I think you were wanting to head down a different path

Hmmm...
I don't remember me not wanting to come at it from a realistic angle, but at the same time I do think it should be fairly fast-playing and be set up so that players can run multiple cars and/or groups of pedestrians.

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Postby thedugan » Sat Dec 06, 2008 10:13 pm

underling wrote:Hmmm...
I don't remember me not wanting to come at it from a realistic angle, but at the same time I do think it should be fairly fast-playing and be set up so that players can run multiple cars and/or groups of pedestrians.


Heh, can you say "Death Race 2000"?
:D
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