SNE Flotillas

The Universal Game of Starship Combat
BroAdso
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Re: SNE Flotillas

Postby BroAdso » Thu Jan 07, 2016 1:16 am

I know this is a bit of a necro, but have you ever figured out a good way to simulate flotillas not losing their thrust rating when they make a damage check?

It seems like they should lose firepower when they lose a 'hull point', but not thrust - since the individual ships constituting the flotilla are fewer in number, but not each individually damaged.

A simple special rule should be that flotillas automatically take weapon bank damage (no roll required) and have an increased chance to take special systems damage, but never take shield or engine damage.

murtalianconfederacy
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Re: SNE Flotillas

Postby murtalianconfederacy » Thu Jan 07, 2016 9:52 am

Um, no, not really. My main concern was to insert flotillas with minimal changes to the rules--so it's not too much trouble to simply slot in, as it were. I like your idea, however I think there should always be the possibility of taking shield and thrust damage (think of it as shrapnel from exploding flotilla ships impacting other ships).

Here's a first draft of the flotilla damage concept:

"Units designated as Flotillas should be treated as having Fragile Systems for weapon, system and munitions, but Re-inforced systems for thrust points and shields"

That gives an automatic 50% reduction in weapon, system and munition damage but a much reduced chance of thrust or shield damage, representing the reduction in raw firepower and loss of unit coherency, but showing that ships are rarely physically affected by other ships being destroyed.
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Re: SNE Flotillas

Postby Blacklancer99 » Thu Jan 07, 2016 5:44 pm

murtalianconfederacy wrote:Um, no, not really. My main concern was to insert flotillas with minimal changes to the rules--so it's not too much trouble to simply slot in, as it were. I like your idea, however I think there should always be the possibility of taking shield and thrust damage (think of it as shrapnel from exploding flotilla ships impacting other ships).

Here's a first draft of the flotilla damage concept:

"Units designated as Flotillas should be treated as having Fragile Systems for weapon, system and munitions, but Re-inforced systems for thrust points and shields"

That gives an automatic 50% reduction in weapon, system and munition damage but a much reduced chance of thrust or shield damage, representing the reduction in raw firepower and loss of unit coherency, but showing that ships are rarely physically affected by other ships being destroyed.


I think it might be better to generalize that Flotillas always take weapons/munition damage with a Hull it and never take Thrust damage (and just leave Shields as is)...that way you retain the ability to use the Fragile Systems and Reinforced Systems traits in design. Just my $0.02.
Erik
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murtalianconfederacy
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Re: SNE Flotillas

Postby murtalianconfederacy » Fri Jan 08, 2016 9:10 am

Hmm, that works too...:)
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Re: SNE Flotillas

Postby BroAdso » Fri Jan 08, 2016 12:01 pm

Hmm, I agree. But a rule which says 'always take weapons damage, never shield or engines' isn't a totally 'fair' tradeoff - a ship could, if rolling damage checks, take damage in several at once. It also begs the question of whether a flotilla with one 'weapons bank' could be in bad shape under this rule, which one with the same points cost but two banks could be in better shape, since MC's rules assume we're using bank-specific damage.

Would the following rule work: "Flotillas, when damaged, never take shield or engine damage, but take two weapon damage results and roll as normal for special systems."

As long as every flotilla was required to have three or four banks, that would work very well (damage check one: two banks damaged, or one bank completely destroyed. Damage check two: all four banks damaged, or two banks destroyed).

It would also work well with Murtalianconfederacy's rules for how many ships and of what type they are, since those rules give some good ideas on how to set up the banks based on what kind of ships are in the flotilla.

Here's a sample flotilla from an IP we all basically understand:
(33) X-Wing Squadron -class Flotilla Nova TL: 2
Armor: 1 * 1 * 1
Hull: 1 * 1 * 1
Thrust: 12 8 6 4 3
Shields: 5 6 6 6 6
ECM: 0 0 0 0 0
Weapons: 0 1 2 3 4
[V]: 1x Red Leader and Red 1 (Dfs/Pnp) / [FH] / 1 - 2 - 3 / AD: 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Mode2 (Gid/Skr/Slw) / 2 - 4 - 6 / AD: 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
[W]: 1x Red 2 and Red 3 (Dfs/Pnp) / [FH] / 1 - 2 - 3 / AD: 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Mode2 (Gid/Skr/Slw/Dx2) / 1 - 2 - 3 / AD: 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
[X]: 1x Red 4 and Red 5 (Dfs/Pnp) / [FH] / 1 - 2 - 3 / AD: 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Mode2 (Gid/Skr/Slw) / 2 - 4 - 6 / AD: 2 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Special: Hyperdrive

Under the proposed damage rules, on its first damage check, two 'vessels' from the flotilla are gone and one 'bank' is destroyed (oh no! We lost Red 4 and Red 5!) or two 'vessels' from the flotilla are gone and two banks are firing at a -1 (Red 3 and Red 5 are both gone!). If you get unlucky and roll for damage, the whole flotilla can't go to hyperspace - maybe a destroyed ship had the coordinates, a damaged ship's debris are causing interference, who knows.

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Re: SNE Flotillas

Postby Blacklancer99 » Fri Jan 08, 2016 12:49 pm

BroAdso wrote:Hmm, I agree. But a rule which says 'always take weapons damage, never shield or engines' isn't a totally 'fair' tradeoff - a ship could, if rolling damage checks, take damage in several at once. It also begs the question of whether a flotilla with one 'weapons bank' could be in bad shape under this rule, which one with the same points cost but two banks could be in better shape, since MC's rules assume we're using bank-specific damage.

Would the following rule work: "Flotillas, when damaged, never take shield or engine damage, but take two weapon damage results and roll as normal for special systems."

As long as every flotilla was required to have three or four banks, that would work very well (damage check one: two banks damaged, or one bank completely destroyed. Damage check two: all four banks damaged, or two banks destroyed).

It would also work well with Murtalianconfederacy's rules for how many ships and of what type they are, since those rules give some good ideas on how to set up the banks based on what kind of ships are in the flotilla.

Here's a sample flotilla from an IP we all basically understand:
(33) X-Wing Squadron -class Flotilla Nova TL: 2
Armor: 1 * 1 * 1
Hull: 1 * 1 * 1
Thrust: 12 8 6 4 3
Shields: 5 6 6 6 6
ECM: 0 0 0 0 0
Weapons: 0 1 2 3 4
[V]: 1x Red Leader and Red 1 (Dfs/Pnp) / [FH] / 1 - 2 - 3 / AD: 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Mode2 (Gid/Skr/Slw) / 2 - 4 - 6 / AD: 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
[W]: 1x Red 2 and Red 3 (Dfs/Pnp) / [FH] / 1 - 2 - 3 / AD: 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Mode2 (Gid/Skr/Slw/Dx2) / 1 - 2 - 3 / AD: 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
[X]: 1x Red 4 and Red 5 (Dfs/Pnp) / [FH] / 1 - 2 - 3 / AD: 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Mode2 (Gid/Skr/Slw) / 2 - 4 - 6 / AD: 2 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Special: Hyperdrive

Under the proposed damage rules, on its first damage check, two 'vessels' from the flotilla are gone and one 'bank' is destroyed (oh no! We lost Red 4 and Red 5!) or two 'vessels' from the flotilla are gone and two banks are firing at a -1 (Red 3 and Red 5 are both gone!). If you get unlucky and roll for damage, the whole flotilla can't go to hyperspace - maybe a destroyed ship had the coordinates, a damaged ship's debris are causing interference, who knows.


This is better than using traits to simulate and still simple enough. Oh, and Red 5 never dies. ;)
Erik
Facts are stubborn things, but statistics are more pliable.
Mark Twain.

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Re: SNE Flotillas

Postby BroAdso » Wed Jan 20, 2016 12:19 pm

Tried to put these discussions into a simple-to-read, organized form in case Dan ever wants to put them in something like a Starmada Nova Rules Compendium. How to create and use flotillas in one page, plus a few sample flotillas to give people an idea of the diversity that's possible.

Thanks again to MC for the origin of these ideas about small ship groups as hull-3 ships.
Attachments
SampleNewRulesFlotillas.pdf
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murtalianconfederacy
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Re: SNE Flotillas

Postby murtalianconfederacy » Sun Jan 24, 2016 9:53 am

And here's my riposte...:)

I looked through your document and found some incompatibilities with your rules and some (maybe even most, if not all) of the flotillas I've employed in the past as well as a difference in the SU requirement for basing. So I quickly threw together this document.
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Suggestions for Flotilla rules by BroAdso.pdf
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BroAdso
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Re: SNE Flotillas

Postby BroAdso » Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:36 pm

No need for it to be a riposte, we're working together, not competing :D

You're right that my general values doesn't match some of your flotillas from supplements - I wasn't aiming for backwards compatibility. I don't think that's an essential part of the proposed special rules anyway, though, so I'd be happy to let it go - the fewer rules the better.

On your suggestion for a way to find a balance between a straight cost for basing flotillas and a cost for each individual flotilla on the mothership, I think you've hit on something. There does need to be a way to show that it's not just the flotilla itself, but also the basing capacity, that requires space in the ship.

As for your suggestions with regards to weapon damage, they really do capture the mechanical effect we want to go for with weapon banks being lost in a way that represents ships being knocked out of the flotilla. However, since Flotillas have the potential to be pretty darned numerous, having people rolling on tables every time they lose a hull point or two has the potential to create book keeping nightmares. I wonder if there's a middle ground between my version (which I agree is a little too simplistic and bad at simulating heterogeneous flotillas) and MurtalianConfederacy's system, which might create a bit too much book keeping.

I'm enjoying this discussion - lots of food for thought and many interesting ideas.

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Re: SNE Flotillas

Postby murtalianconfederacy » Thu Jan 28, 2016 10:14 am

Re: weapon damage--I thought that just rolling one die per flotilla wouldn't be as bad, dice rolling-wise, but I can see that multiple flotillas could slow down gameplay somewhat...

Idea: An optional rule (for the optional flotillas) could be to allow players fighting large fleet actions the opportunity to simply say that each flotilla weapon damage roll is automatically 1--thus, for a weapon battery with four banks, the flotilla would lose two banks on the first hull hit, no roll required. I'd say making this kick in for 1000 or 2000pt-plus fleets would make sense--the larger fleet sizes would require some simplifying during gameplay, but for small fleets there should be some ability for a flotilla to retain capabilities for longer. I might have nicked this idea from Hard Vacuum for their fleet actions, but couldn't say for sure...
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