New points system for your perusal

Complete fantasy mass-combat wargame system

Moderator: Taltos

jimbeau
Vice Admiral
Vice Admiral
Posts: 960
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 9:56 pm

Postby jimbeau » Sat Feb 17, 2007 3:49 pm

Zerloon wrote:
The pratical problem is that Commander should have a cost that reflect theyre abilities, no matter how many units they goes to command. This is to avoid unnecessary complications when you choose you're force. So, giving a cost and saying there can be one every 1000 points can solve the problem, in an abstract way I agree, but if works...


It just seems arbitrary, that's all. What if my force is made up of 5000 points and each unit had "Disciplined". Maybe I'd want one or two commanders to bolster any individual units when they get poor rolls, but there's really no need to have the commanders there.

Then, imagine they're fighting a 5000 point force with mostly "Undisciplined" units. I might take extra commanders in this case.

As soon as we dictate the force construction, I'm afraid we'll need to make all sorts of concessions for individual problems that causes. And, at some level, then all the armies become the same.

You know the orcs are under-represented by commanders, there's simply not enough Orcs who want to risk their lives for command, but it makes them more interesting to command that way.

There should be a mathematical answer to this, hopefully Kevin will attach his spreadsheet so we can look at it (hint, hint)

underling
Commodore
Commodore
Posts: 561
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 4:37 pm
Location: Wichita, Ks

Postby underling » Sat Feb 17, 2007 4:23 pm

jimbeau wrote:
Zerloon wrote:It just seems arbitrary, that's all. What if my force is made up of 5000 points and each unit had "Disciplined". Maybe I'd want one or two commanders to bolster any individual units when they get poor rolls, but there's really no need to have the commanders there.
There should be a mathematical answer to this, hopefully Kevin will attach his spreadsheet so we can look at it (hint, hint)

In my opinion, a lot of point cost sytem construction *is* subjective and arbitrary. You can use math to a degree, but there's always going to be a certain percentage of point costing that might still be math based, but is also subjective.
The spreadsheet I came up with is very simple, but might be a good place to start with showing relative worth of command dice. And your point system might actually already reflect what I have found.
Hmmm...
I can't seem to add an Excel file as an attachment.
I'll just send it to Jim and he can figure it out.
:D
Kevin

jimbeau
Vice Admiral
Vice Admiral
Posts: 960
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 9:56 pm

Postby jimbeau » Sun Feb 18, 2007 1:45 am

Kevin sent this in an email, and I actually came up with the same numbers

> Jim,
> I'll send you the XL sheet on Monday, but I can probably remember what I found from my little experiment.
> I believe the following is where I'd start with respect to point costing command point dice.
>
> Command dice 0d4 1d4 1d6 1d8 1d10 1d12
> Cost multiplier x1.0 x2.5 x3.5 x4.5 x5.5 x6.5
>
> Command dice 2d4 2d6 2d8 2d10 2d12
> Cost multiplier x5.0 x7.0 x9.0 x11.0 x13.0
>
> The above cost multipliers were found by averaging the probabilities of generating from 1 to 24 command points, and then setting the baseline at a x1.0 multiplier.
> Surprisingly enough, it works out to be the average roll for each dice roll.

So, now, I just have to figure out how this effects the force point totals.

I'm going to study Defiance now and se if I can steal ... er ... learn something from that force building system.

jimbeau
Vice Admiral
Vice Admiral
Posts: 960
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 9:56 pm

Postby jimbeau » Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:29 am

okay, the defiance study proved fruitless. That system differs in so many ways from FtM both in scale and in implementation that I can't use any part of it without completely reworking the whole FtM system from the ground up.

Does anyone want that? Seriously, if someone wants to build a completely different point system, now is the time to speak your mind.

Now, I wanted to make commanders affect the entire force, but as a lower percentage, not a 10x multiplier

The ratio of points between the command dice is where I want to go with this one. please look at it and tell me where I've gone wrong. (I've purposely normalized it to d6)

CmdMultiplier
d4 .70
d6 1.0
d8 1.3
d10 1.6
d12 1.9

CmdrValue = CmdMultiplier * #Dice * (CmdRange / 8 )

CmdPointMultipler=
1 + sum of all CmdrValues / # units in force

Now take the Boreals above and here's what you get:

1 Horde Master (General) 84
1 Hero (Personality) 56
1 Hero (Personality) 42
1 Shaman of K’Syaad (Personality) 216
1 Warriors (8 Elements) 584
1 Warriors (6 Elements) 438
1 Javelins (6 Elements) 696
1 Horse Warriors (8 Elements) 1224
1 Zealots (5 Elements) 610
2 War Mammoths (Monster 3) 424
1 Yeti (Monster 2) 123
1 Giant Polar Bear (Monster 1) 63
4,560

Command dice
Horde Master 2d6/8 CmdValue = 2
Hero 1 d6/8 CmdValue = 1
Hero 2 d8/8 CmdValue = 1.3

Total = 3.3
# units = 13

1 + 3.3 / 13 = 1.25

1.25 x 4560 = 5700 force total

Now what if you purposely take commanders with a shorter range to bring down the points.

say, the following

Command dice
Horde Master 2d6/4 CmdValue = 1
Hero 1 d6/4 CmdValue = .5
Hero 2 d8/4 CmdValue = .65

total=2.15
# units = 13

1+2.15 / 13=1.17
1.17 x 4560 = 5335

Now what if you purposely take commanders with a Longer range to bring up the points.

say, the following

Command dice
Horde Master 2d6/20 CmdValue = 28
Hero 1 d6/20 CmdValue = 14
Hero 2 d8/20 CmdValue = 18

total=60
# units = 13

1 + 60 / 13=5.6
5.6 x 4560 = 25336

So, I would say, we COULD cap the command range to 12, but I say if you want to spend the points on range 20 commanders, you deserve a 560% multiplier.

Thoughts?
Last edited by jimbeau on Sun Nov 04, 2007 5:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Zerloon
Sub-Lieutenant
Sub-Lieutenant
Posts: 44
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 7:53 pm
Location: Rome, Italy. Yeah, I'm a lucky man.
Contact:

Postby Zerloon » Tue Feb 20, 2007 8:40 pm

Only one:

Basing the cost of commander by number of units is an unnecessary complications, and since not everyone have the time and will to recalculate the point cost of commander every time they prepare an army to a game with this choice you will lose some player.

Do you wish to laught?

Zer:"Hey Kassad, do you wish to play FtM saturday?"
Kassad:"Cool, how many points?"
Zer:"Well, 2000 wil be good, see ya".

Kassad: Ok... well, with this I have 12 units, so a commander will cost... X. Uhm, I still have point to spend, I can take another units of archer... Doh, I must recalculate points, so now is Y. Not good, I'll exceed points... so removing this unit commander return to X... ok... Oh, no I haven't so many archer... remove this, add some elements... ach I must recalculate again... where are excel spreadsheet? (ZOOOOT) Oh my, the light are off... so not pc, I shlud calculate point cost by mind?

Kassad:"Zer?"
Zerloon:"Yeah?"
Kassad:"For saturday... maybe can we play at monopoli..."


Ok, I'm ironic, and if you shoul not reconsider your tought I'll not insist anymore, but please let think at this.

Oh, I know that not everyone play wit exactly the same point cost and a little tolerance is due, but since some do keep in mind everyone :D

jimbeau
Vice Admiral
Vice Admiral
Posts: 960
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 9:56 pm

Postby jimbeau » Wed Feb 21, 2007 12:30 am

ha ha

okay, your point is taken. Can I come over and play monopoly too?

How would you change the points system (or, gasp, does it work now as it stands?)

Zerloon
Sub-Lieutenant
Sub-Lieutenant
Posts: 44
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 7:53 pm
Location: Rome, Italy. Yeah, I'm a lucky man.
Contact:

Postby Zerloon » Wed Feb 21, 2007 12:58 am

Can I come over and play monopoly too?


Of course you can, when you came to Rome give me a call. :wink:

How would you change the points system (or, gasp, does it work now as it stands?)


As I said I'll fix the cap at 1 dice, 2 dice is a choice too easy to make.

The things I'll change is not the point system, or at least I haven't the knowledge to do so (as I understand there is some rules change that will influence point cost), but I'll change how commanding units act in the battlefield.

Actually they are a strange things of elements, I think at them as the guy who command and bodyguards. With a couple of wound since the death of them is a bad things, usually with high defense and some attack, but there's no hurry to get them into the fray since they are so valuable...
So what we have? A unit of one element, with good stats but without a real combat influence...

I'd like a more abstact command units, maybe with no stats at all but command dice, and point cost related only for this.

So you'll learn to ask :lol:

RiflemanIII
Lieutenant Commander
Lieutenant Commander
Posts: 207
Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:48 pm
Contact:

Postby RiflemanIII » Wed Feb 21, 2007 12:31 pm

jimbeau wrote:ha ha

okay, your point is taken. Can I come over and play monopoly too?

How would you change the points system (or, gasp, does it work now as it stands?)


Aside from some of the ability cost changes suggested by someone else a good while back I have no complaints about the point system.
Last edited by RiflemanIII on Thu Feb 22, 2007 3:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

jimbeau
Vice Admiral
Vice Admiral
Posts: 960
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 9:56 pm

Postby jimbeau » Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:22 am

Sorry, I don't know what baility is...

RiflemanIII
Lieutenant Commander
Lieutenant Commander
Posts: 207
Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:48 pm
Contact:

Postby RiflemanIII » Thu Feb 22, 2007 3:10 am

jimbeau wrote:Sorry, I don't know what baility is...


Ah, that should be ability.


Return to “For the Masses”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest